posted
I've always taken the position that when I stop writing about a character, his aging process stops, and it does not begin again until I start writing about him again, at which time I decide how much older he is.
When I noticed your posts last week about seeing Matt at the age of 53 in EBYT, I was stunned that you'd think he was going to be 14 years older just because I wrote PARADISE 14 years ago. I was going to post a joking reply here that said something like, "Hey, it took me four years to write WHITNEY, but you wouldn't expect me to make Clayton four years older when I finished because of that, now would you?"
But your posts seemed so sure Matt would have to be 14 years older--and you're all such experts on my books--that I was really bothered by your certainty about his age...
And then, two nights ago, I had an awful thought which I assured myself couldn't be true. I grabbed a copy of PARADISE and there it was--my "worst nightmare": I did put a date at the beginning of Chapter One. And several chapters as well.
I grabbed a copy of PERFECT, and saw that I'd done the same thing in PERFECT.
I can't believe I did something that stupid--not when I've gone out of my way in subsequent books to avoid any mention of current events or real politicial figures, or anything else that could later cause my book to be "dated." I don't even describe clothing that could seem "dated" to readers in years to come.
Eight or ten years ago, if I would have recalled that I'd put the dates on those chapters in PARADISE and PERFECT, I'd have notified Pocket to yank them off the pages and I would have written a line or two instead to explain how much time had passed since the ending of the last chaper. I should have done it that way in the first place. The only explanation I can come up with for why I would have put actual dates on those chapters was that I'd been writing historicals for years, and in an historical, it's important to know the actual date.
Right now, the only practical way to circumvent the problem I created by listing those dates in PARADISE and PERFECT would be to have the dates on those chapers changed to 15 years sooner. The problem with that is there's millions of copies of those two books in print already, so its really too late to update them and have it make a real difference.
Since that isn't an option, and since I don't want to portray Matt as a 50-year-old, I'm going to solve the problem by avoiding any hint of his age in EBTY. He's not going to have gray hair, and if I mention their daughter is at school, I'm not going to say what grade she's in now.
That way, you and other readers may envision him being whatever age you choose. Personally, I envisioned Meredith and he being four or five years older in EBTY than PARADISE, and I'm going to stick with that as I work on EBTY.
Although I wouldn't mind Matt with salt and pepper hair (since I do think it's sexy), I prefer the "closer to Hero's age" Matt. And getting to see more of Matt the way I already have him in my mind is so much more exciting. *g*
Of course, if you ever want to write their child/ren's book, I won't mind a 53 yr old Matt at all. Just saying.
Thank you for taking the time to look into this! It would ultimately, change the image of Matt that lives in my head if he were to be portrayed as a 53 year old. Also, if I were to go back and re-read Paradise/Perfect, I wouldn't be able to see him as he was, because the older man would already have taken his place...
The mind is a funny thing...Or perhaps just mine is...
Thanks so much! It's always wonderful to see you...
-------------------- ~~Jess~~
Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired. Robert Frost US poet (1874 - 1963) Posts: 2970 | From: Santa Cruz, Ca. | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
4-5 years older sounds good to me. I'll buy into it.
Kiss, kiss, Jennie
PS BTW, Royce is actually 42 now.
-------------------- "We can't all come and go by bubble." Elphaba from Wicked. Posts: 5475 | From: Claymore with my beloved Royce | Registered: Apr 2000
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Thanks for clarifying on Matt's age. I've been wondering what happened to your post on this issue a few days ago.
IMHO, I can foresee alot of effort on your part to keep Matt's age a 'secret'. It probably won't make much difference to the readers who already knew about the Farrells' history. If I hadn't read about your explanation earlier, I would probably try to look out for any clue (no matter how small) from any event in EBYT to guess his age.
But since you've specifically said that Matt and Mer are going to be just a few years older than they were in PERFECT (which I believe was the last time you wrote about them, STWOM isn't counted) I will stick with that timeline, ie. mid 1990s thereabout.
I don't remember whether NW was dated in any way, but based on NW and STWOM, I think we can safely assume that both stories occurred around the same time frame. (Courtney was about the same age in both novels, and we know that NW is 5 years after PERFECT)
And I believe so will EBYT too, right?
-------------------- Jen Posts: 1238 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well, there is always the option of just inserting the appropriate date in the new book. I can say I don't usually remember the dates I read past a few pages, other than to get a mindset for pop culture at the time the book is set in. And, no matter how hard you try, current influences inevitably creep in - example: the prevalence of cell phones, which makes sense now, but would have been sci-fi back in the 80s!! But then, picking out those kind of inaccuracies is part of the fun for me. The sheer number of things we take for granted now that just didn't exist all that long ago is astounding. (brought to point for me by the fact that my mom has trouble using computers - and my dad retired out of the IT industry!)
Posts: 6 | From: Alabama | Registered: May 2005
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posted
That certainly works for me too, Judith. Thanks for the explanation. Matt's my all time favorite hero of yours and it's good to know that he won't be joining a geriatric group any time soon.
-------------------- ♥ JJ ♥ Posts: 5575 | From: Troubleshooters, Inc. | Registered: Feb 2004
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I also don't like to read about my favorite characters getting older if they were refered or reappeared in the succeeding books.
-------------------- ***Formerly known as Sharon Sandini***
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time but to leave unsaid the wrong things at the tempting moment." -Anonymous? Posts: 2957 | From: Here, There and Everywhere | Registered: May 2003
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posted
MareofEarth: If I understand your suggestion about inserting the appropriate date in the new book, that would mean implying that EBYT takes place circa 1994, but that's back-dating a new book, which is deliberately creating the very problem I'm annoyed with myself for inadvertently (and needlessly) creating in PARADISE. If that makes any sense...
You're right about current influences inevitably creeping in, but as long as they continue to seem "current," that's fine. It's when these current influences become "outdated" that a book suddenly looses a little of its authenticity with new readers, and that's what I'd like to avoid.
An example that comes to mind involves DOUBLE STANDARDS. When I wrote it in 1982, I was using a "Mag Card," which was an automatated typewriter and the absolute cutting edge of office equipment--such a cutting edge piece that major corporations only had a few of them, and they were always installed in a centralized "Customer Service" department. At that time, the luckiest of high-powered executive secretaries in a corporate environment was using the latest IBM electric typewriter, and nothing more.
At that time, and for 20 years prior to it, an IBM electric typewriter was the ultimate, state-of-the-art piece of executive secrectarial equipment in corporations. Prior to that, and for as far back as anyone could remember, manual typewriters were the only choice.
Shortly after I finished DS, I bought one of the first PC/word processors on the market. However, technology was about to advance beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Within five years, PC's were being installed on secretarial desks all over the country.
It was about that same time that I received a fan letter from a new reader who was probably 18 or 20, and working at her first job. After telling me how much she enjoyed DS, she gently pointed out that I'd made a mistake when I referred to the sound of "clacking keyboards" going quiet when Nick Sinclair strolled toward Lauren's desk. She explained to me that computer keyboards really don't clack and they don't make enough noise to become noticably quiet.
I thought it was cute that she'd never heard the rhythmic clatter made by a group of electric typewriters in use.
But my all time favorite example of your "things we take for granted now that just didn't exist all that long ago" occured in a Regency Romance written by an obviously young new writer. In an effort to illustrate how humorously tacky a social climbing 1820's dowager was, the young writer referred to the fact that the dowager had put bouquets of plastic flowers all over her townhouse in an effort to make her daughter seem sought-after by elible noblemen.
Now, to be honest, I'm not old enough to remember a time when there wasn't any plastic either, but I am old enough to know plastic was a "new" sensation with unexplored uses not long before I was born.
What made this young Regency author's plastic-flower "blooper" especially entertaining and remarkable is that it escaped detection by her own editor who read her finished manuscript, as well as the copy editor whose job it is to watch for and notice any sort of dscrepancy, no matter how minor.
Evidently all three of these people were so young that they actually thought elaborate plastic products were commonplace long before someone figured out how to design a rudimentary toilet. (And before my Dreadnaughts pounce on the opportunity to ask me if I know who is credited with designing that, the answer is yes, I do know. And yes, I think his name is funny.)
posted
Judith...I think even though we "know" that Matt is 54 b/c of the dates, I don't think anyone pictures him as 53. I have a picture of Matt in my head (and I found a model that I use pictures of as Matt ) and this model is not in his fifties.
But thanks so much for thinking about all of this. Even though it's probably given you a headache.
-------------------- SL
"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, than one thousand days as a sheep." Posts: 4670 | From: In the arms of Matt Farrell | Registered: Jun 2002
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HEY! I think men can be sexy at 50!! (50 does not seem that OLD to me anymore!) So, I would have no problem if you mentioned that he had graying hair! In fact, I think that would be great!
Thank you for considering our feelings, though. I hope it is not TOO much of a pain!
Salt and pepper hair is extremely sexy!! George Clooney...*sigh*
-------------------- SL
"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, than one thousand days as a sheep." Posts: 4670 | From: In the arms of Matt Farrell | Registered: Jun 2002
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Who invented the toilet? Was it really a guy named Thomas Crapper?
If I had a nickel for every time I've been asked that, I'd have, oh, about seventy-five cents actually. The fact is, nobody knows exactly who invented the toilet, but the general consensus is that it was not Thomas Crapper. While toilets date back to ancient times, the modern toilet can be more accurately traced back to Sir John Harrington, who described a waste disposal system in the Metamorphosis of Ajax in the 16th century. Some accounts of Thomas Crapper's life indicate that he patented the flush toilet in 1861, but Adam Hart-Davis, author of Thunder, Flush and Thomas Crapper, discovered that, while Thomas Crapper filed for a total of six patents, the earliest being filed in 1881, not one of them was for a flush toilet. It's quite possible that we can thank Sir Thomas Crapper for giving us the word, "crap," but even that is questionable, as Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary indicates that the term dates back to 1846, a full sixteen years before Thomas Crapper established himself as a master plumber. I wonder if we have Sir John Harrigton to thank for the term, "john"?
Posts: 139 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Hey, I don't pay attention to ages. I have a mental image and it works just fine for me.
As for 50 being old. . . I'm with V and SL, it's not old at all. It's totally sexy.
Besides, Stephen is going to be 50 on his next birthday and I still think he's damn cute!
Di
-------------------- A friend is one who knows all about you and likes you anyway. Christi Mary Warner Posts: 5490 | From: The Earl of Langford's Master Suite | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I'm in love with a man, nearly twice my age, I don't know what it is, but it's a hit from youthful days, As I go my way, I don't care what people say, I'm in love with a man, nearly twice my age!
LOL.
Age was never a factor for me. I just didn't want to read about him having health problems as he got older. Thanks Judith!
amisha
-------------------- --Amisha
_ _ _ _ _ _______________ _ _ _ _ _
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it." --Oscar Wilde Posts: 3213 | From: ConnJerseyticut | Registered: Aug 2003
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I don't know, I was kind of looking forward to a teenage Marissa and the ruckus that would cause our great Matt.
As for his age, egh. Matt will still be hot into his eighties.
Charlie
-------------------- "If a man is talking in the forest, and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?" ~Jenny Weber Posts: 422 | From: Makepeace Keep | Registered: Jan 2004
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I'll take seeing Matt any day, at any age. He's like Sean Connery, he'll still be sexy at 70.
Natalie
-------------------- Always do right. That will gratify some of the people, and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain Posts: 1110 | From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2002
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No matter How old he is I think he would be the type of man that aged gracefully....Like some women do ya know look 14 when ur 23; look 23 when ur actually 43 that sort of thing
But thats me an what I think so no matter what he woudl have been young to me
-------------------- Shawna
"I'm not crazy I've just been in a bad mood for 20 years." Posts: 1064 | From: Des Moines, IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Judith IMHO, I don't care how old Matt will be in EBYT, because the picture I had of him will always be 35 years old, with dark hair and gray eyes! Yes, that would be him and even though Matt has a bit of gray in his hair, I would still love him!
I agree with Amisha, I'm in love with a man twice my age! LOL
Ro
-------------------- ~Ro~ Posts: 1881 | From: ...in the bedroom with Stuart... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oooh, I may be in the minority here, JM, but I loove that Paradise utilized specific dates. And Perfect too, for that matter! I can see why you wouldn't want to "date" the book as it might cloud the enjoyment of someone reading it for the first time years later, but on the other hand....I dunno. It gives me warm fuzzies to be able to put everything in its perfect little timeline perspective. And anyway, Paradise is a classic. There is no such thing as it being outdated. Like wine and all that. *grin*
As for Matt's age, rotf...I cannot be-lieve I have been so worried these past years, mournfully thinking that if you didn't put Matt in another book soon I would never ever see him again--for I was sure you wouldn't write about him nearing sixty--when all along you had a nice little way of circumventing the problem altogether.
So hurrah! Now that you have pointed out that age is no obstacle, CLEARLY this means you can continue to use Matt in many books to come. *wicked grin*
Delighted to hear it, I remain, Jessica
-------------------- Ten men waiting for me at the door? Send one of them home, I'm tired. -- Mae West
posted
In view of how acutely aware you all were of PARADISE'S timeline (and how unaware I was of it), I'm surprised someone here who read STWOM didn't suggest that Joe O'Hara should be thinking about surrendering his driver's license.
posted
*gasp*...Maybe because Joe seems so young and carefree, we didn't think of it?
-------------------- ~~Jess~~
Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired. Robert Frost US poet (1874 - 1963) Posts: 2970 | From: Santa Cruz, Ca. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Yes, Judith, I am surprised that our Mal O'Hara didn't have something to say about it! Of course, knowing her she would probably brag about how she is able to keep him forever young and studly!!
Barb
-------------------- Barb
**********************************
~"I came here," Zack said, "because I can't live without her."~ Perfect Posts: 2342 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2003
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I must say a few things regarding this issue : 1/ I always find it clearer and more serious when an author can specify the date when the story takes place. For me it's important that the story is clean, and I must admit that I sometimes take time to check if the dates are well ok regarding to what has been said before !!! Yes I do ... So thank you for adding a date at the beginning of a story, and thank you for also adding one, when possible, and when necessary, in the middle of the story. It makes me more confident about the whole story and I love it even more.
2)In my mind the sexy and so powerful Matt Farrell will always be one of the most attractive heroe that I've ever met. I prefer to remember him being 35 but if needed, I would not be disappointed to see him again at 53. It is anyway not possible to make him unattractive because I LOVE HIM FOR EVER !!!
Sorry I'm a poor French new reader in this group of discussion, and did not have time yet to read all of the topics (but I'm worling on it ...), maybe my question has already got an answer (hope it has not !!) ; will we also see again the wonderful Zack and Julie in a future new book ?
thanks
Corinne
-------------------- "There are some men who enter a woman's life and screw it up forever. Joseph Morelli did this to me-- not forever, but periodically." Janet Evanovich Posts: 2750 | From: FRANCE | Registered: May 2005
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The thought of Matt with a bit if gray at the temples to go along with those glasses certainly does interest me though.
Thanks Judith.
Cin
-------------------- Cindy Benedict
"I've learned that even when I have pains, I don't have to be one." Maya Angelou Posts: 2063 | From: Secluded cabin in Colorado w/ Zack | Registered: Oct 2001
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