Topic: Something that disappoints me about Paradise
Anonymous Gal *hoping profusely I won't offend*
unregistered
posted
Something that disappoints me about Paradise Ok you are all probably going to groan
at this technicallity, but it's just
something that bothers me.
Meredith lost Elizabeth in her 6th
month, that's not a miscarriage that's
a still birth. In fact it might not
have even been a still birth - Meredith
mentions that Elizabeth was too little
to be saved, which makes me think
Elizabeth survived labor and died after
birth. And as such it really bothers me
that Meredith et al refer to the loss
of Elizabeth as a 'miscarriage'.
The reason it does bother me is I can
very much relate to what Meredith went
through because my son was still born
at 7 months - and I can't stand it when
people refer to him as a miscarriage.
Paradise was actually one of the last
JM books that I read. In all her books
including Paradise I have always fallen
totally and utterly in love with the
characters - they always feel so real.
I can tell Judith must do a whole lot
of research on the settings but my
feeling is that she didn't research the
loss of a baby late in pregnancy.
It also bothers me that Meredith didn't
go to Elizabeth's grave after she was
released from hospital to check if the
flowers had been sent. I would have
also loved to have read about Meredith
taking Matt to see Elizabeth's grave, I
know that sounds terribly morbid but I
believe it would have been a very
intensely emotional scene that would
have helped them bond even more.
I appologise profusely if I upset
anyone with the content of this post,
and I have seriously considered not
posting it, but I felt I had to have my
say - (even though it's anoymous).
posted
No offense taken :o) Here on the JMBB you will see all sorts of emotions expressed!
From joy, delight and reverence, to annoyance, upset and
even horror. We all have grievances from time to time, and
because they never have *anything* to do with Judith herself,
or with her incredible writing talent and ability to evoke such
intensity in her readers, we all post about things that didn't
sit very well with us.
And you make a very good point. Perhaps it would have
been better to say that Elizabeth was born prematurely,
and I agree, a scene with Matt and Meredith visiting their
daughter together would have been very touching--one that
would have, no doubt, had us all reaching for the box of
kleenex. Again!!
I'm very sorry about your son, what a devestating thing to
have to go through. You have my deepest sympathy.
You say that you considered not posting, but I'm very glad
that you decided to, and hopefully you will post again.
It's always such a delight to hear a new voice on the board!
posted
You made a good point, one that I never
thought about. It would have made for
some very touching and emotional scenes
and JM could have written them like no
other. And I'm very sorry for your
loss. I have a friend that went
through a similar situation and I've
seen what a devastating time that can
be.
I'm glad that you posted your opinion.
It's always nice to read different
thoughts about our wonderful author! I
tend to not post very often because my
opinions or favorites are not
necessarily what's most popular on the
board. I know that sounds silly!
LOL. Maybe I'll get a little more
courage!
Lisa
Ok you are all probably going to groan
] at this technicallity, but it's just
] something that bothers me.
]
] Meredith lost Elizabeth in her 6th
] month, that's not a miscarriage
that's
] a still birth. In fact it might not
] have even been a still birth -
Meredith
] mentions that Elizabeth was too
little
] to be saved, which makes me think
] Elizabeth survived labor and died
after
] birth. And as such it really bothers
me
] that Meredith et al refer to the loss
] of Elizabeth as a 'miscarriage'.
]
] The reason it does bother me is I can
] very much relate to what Meredith
went
] through because my son was still born
] at 7 months - and I can't stand it
when
] people refer to him as a miscarriage.
]
] Paradise was actually one of the last
] JM books that I read. In all her
books
] including Paradise I have always
fallen
] totally and utterly in love with the
] characters - they always feel so
real.
] I can tell Judith must do a whole lot
] of research on the settings but my
] feeling is that she didn't research
the
] loss of a baby late in pregnancy.
]
] It also bothers me that Meredith
didn't
] go to Elizabeth's grave after she was
] released from hospital to check if
the
] flowers had been sent. I would have
] also loved to have read about
Meredith
] taking Matt to see Elizabeth's grave,
I
] know that sounds terribly morbid but
I
] believe it would have been a very
] intensely emotional scene that would
] have helped them bond even more.
]
] I appologise profusely if I upset
] anyone with the content of this post,
] and I have seriously considered not
] posting it, but I felt I had to have
my
] say - (even though it's anoymous).
]
] As always thanks for reading. :'D
posted
No offense taken - in fact... ...I found your post to be very honest and thoughtful. It's very hard to post
something critical (for lack of a better word) without coming across as rude or
offensive. That only makes me more impressed by your sincerity and
eloquence.
I never noticed the technicality of that aspect of "Paradise." However, I see
what you mean. My mother is a doctor, and I found myself agreeing with
your comments upon reading them. As for why Meredith called it a
"miscarriage," I have no idea. Frankly, it's never crossed my mind, but I will
look for it when I re-read the novel (for the hundredth time). LOL.
This is my opinion, but I think Meredith stayed away from her daughter's
grave because the experience would be too painful for her. However, I do
agree that it would make a very poignant and emotional scene. Granted,
"Paradise" is a very emotional scene, but I think such a scene would add
nuance and dimension to the relationship of Matt and Meredith.
posted
No offense taken, I wonder about those letters.... I quite agree with what you said.
She must have not doen adequate research in that area.
It's something to think on anyway! I entirely missed that part and
now that you pointed it out, I can see it rather clearly. Being a
Biology student and a Science and Medical Field major I agree
with what you said. It wasn't a miscarriage. So, you are right! The
baby was just born too early to survive and didn't make it despite the
help that was given. And I agree with including a scene of Matt and
Meredith going to her grave. I would have also liked to have found
out about those letters that they sent each other, but never got to
one another. She didn't finish with that part, although I know who
intercepted them, I would have liked Matt and Meredith to have
gotten those letters back and read them. That would have brought
them closer together, as well.
I'm sorry about your baby boy! It must hurt something fierce to lose
him. I hope I never have to go through that, and I hope it doesn't
happen to you again. But we all know, that he went to heaven! So,
that's a comforting thought.
posted
I agree with you. Maybe we were to
assume that Meredith visited
Elizabeth's grave over the years and
yes, taken Matt there. She was kind in
so many ways that surely she did.
Let's pretend. hy
posted
I'm glad you posted! First, let me start by saying that I am
truly sorry for your loss. It is
terrible to lose a child, no matter
what the age.
Secondly, you're absolutely right. I
would have liked to see the premature
birth brought to the forefront more
because it was so important to the
story. *please don't think me morbid*
By visiting Elizabeth's grave may have
brought closure to Matt and Meredith
and they needed it.
Thank you for posting. We all JM and
her books but I know that we encourage
open and honest discussions.
posted
the part about the flowers do make sense. Meredith was in the
hospital for at least two weeks after the birth of Elizabeth. The
flowers would have died and have been taken away.
Your point about miscarriage vs. still birth is correct. I am very sorry
for your loss. As far as I am concerned, from the moment I found
out I was pregnant, I had a baby. I don't know what to say about
your post other than it is a good point and we would never take
offense. This is an open discussion.
Cin
] Ok you are all probably going to groan
] at this technicallity, but it's just
] something that bothers me.
]
] Meredith lost Elizabeth in her 6th
] month, that's not a miscarriage that's
] a still birth. In fact it might not
] have even been a still birth - Meredith
] mentions that Elizabeth was too little
] to be saved, which makes me think
] Elizabeth survived labor and died after
] birth. And as such it really bothers me
] that Meredith et al refer to the loss
] of Elizabeth as a 'miscarriage'.
]
] The reason it does bother me is I can
] very much relate to what Meredith went
] through because my son was still born
] at 7 months - and I can't stand it when
] people refer to him as a miscarriage.
]
] Paradise was actually one of the last
] JM books that I read. In all her books
] including Paradise I have always fallen
] totally and utterly in love with the
] characters - they always feel so real.
] I can tell Judith must do a whole lot
] of research on the settings but my
] feeling is that she didn't research the
] loss of a baby late in pregnancy.
]
] It also bothers me that Meredith didn't
] go to Elizabeth's grave after she was
] released from hospital to check if the
] flowers had been sent. I would have
] also loved to have read about Meredith
] taking Matt to see Elizabeth's grave, I
] know that sounds terribly morbid but I
] believe it would have been a very
] intensely emotional scene that would
] have helped them bond even more.
]
] I appologise profusely if I upset
] anyone with the content of this post,
] and I have seriously considered not
] posting it, but I felt I had to have my
] say - (even though it's anoymous).
]
] As always thanks for reading. :'D
posted
I am sorry about your loss. I miscarried early in my pregnancy last
year and frequently think of the child I lost. I can only imagine how
you must feel.
quote:Originally posted by Lyn: ... Here on the JMBB you will see all sorts of emotions expressed! From joy, delight and reverence, to annoyance, upset and even horror. We all have grievances from time to time, and because they never have *anything* to do with Judith herself, or with her incredible writing talent and ability to evoke such intensity in her readers, we all post about things that didn't sit very well with us. ...
Lyn
Oh, that is beautifully said. I don't know if Lyn still frequents here, but I wanted to say she epitomized the JMBB with that statement. It is a true today as it was 5 years ago and is the heart of this board.
Being a curious Leo, I wondered how far back the records here went. In my search, I came across this and it touched me. This is one of the things about the people on this board that makes it so special - acceptance of each other and not taking offense of differing opinions. I just love this board.
Jo
-------------------- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
posted
Jo this post totally freaked me out! LOL Not in the content, but with all the unregistered users, and the way their names are not bolded. LOL I thought something was wrong with my computer! lmbo!
I have always loved this board and the people on it. And Lyn's statement..is one of the reasons why I started posting a year and a half ago. It was full of fun and caring ladies, and a great place to come and laugh, or cry and argue on accasion. And of course discuss any and everything JM.
And it's funny but I always wanted to see Matt and Mer go to the grave too. I always envisioned him going down there the day of the anniversary of her death and seeing how much she loved and wanted that baby.
-------------------- * Keep your heart open to dreams. For as long as there's a dream, there is hope, and as long as there is hope, there is joy in living.* Posts: 3128 | From: Western NY | Registered: May 2004
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posted
It is strange seeing unregistered users isn't it? And some of the entries do not have a topic either! But the enthusiasm, care and camaraderie is there in spades!
I've enjoyed reading these older threads re Paradise. Things are discussed that I hadn't even paid attention to. And I'd think, "how did I miss that?"
I also envision Matt and Meredith visiting Elizabeth's grave, laying a bouquet on the gravestone and sitting with her for a while. In a way it is good that Judith didn't include such a scene because I would have used up a box of Kleenex!
Jo
-------------------- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
posted
When I have read Paradise I wondered about that also, its been a while since I had read it and had forgotten about it. I think one thing I always figured was that Meredith let her father control her so much that I wonder if she asked him about it very much. I did kinda figure she had been to the gravesite, but JM did not put it in the book, but at the same time her father was so controlling that a lot of it really bothered me about the entire part of the hospital scene. Meredith also seemed a lot niave, but then at that age I would have been also. I wondered about the letters, like if he locked them in a safe or trashed them??? glenna
-------------------- Nestezy ********************************** Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. Posts: 6367 | From: Seducing Roddy | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Nestezy: Can anybody explain to me how unregistered person can post reply much less to start a new topic?
Nestezy,
No need to be alarmed. This thread was started five years ago when the boards were quite young and not fully developed. That is why it looks as it does.
Some of the earlier threads have really lively discussions on JM's books. I've enjoyed skimming them.
Jo
-------------------- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
quote:Originally posted by Nestezy: Can anybody explain to me how unregistered person can post reply much less to start a new topic?
Now, now, no need to be mad. :-) This thread was created before the board was upgraded to this current UBB format (the upgrade was some time between April-May 2000. Can't remember exactly when). You didn't have to register in order to post back then.
Cheers!
EDIT: LOL, didn't see Jo's post. ^^ BTW, welcome to the BB!
posted
I'm sorry I didn't see this thread 5 years ago; if I had, I would have replied this way:
I can readily understand why the heartbroken mother who posted the original message in this topic would bitterly object to having people refer to her still-born baby (at 7 months into her pregnancy) as a "miscarriage." And I feel very badly for inadvertently adding to her misery by referring to Meredith having a "miscarriage" at 6 months into her pregnancy in PARADISE.
However, my use of the word "miscarriage" in PARADISE wasn't an inadvertent mistake or an error. Because PARADISE was a novel that was going to be read by millions of women all over the world with varying degrees of medical knowledge, and also translated into 80 different languages, I decided not to choose a term from a Medical Dictionary to describe what happened to Meredith. Instead, I chose the appropriate term as defined by the General Dictionaries we all use because this term was less daunting, less distracting, and less likely to be misunderstood and mistranslated. The term was "Miscarriage."
Had I used a somewhat more technical term from a Medical Dictionary, it would actually have been "Spontaneous Abortion."
I don't have to tell you how badly misinterpreted, misunderstood and mistranslated that term would have been.
There were other terms available in the Medical Dictionary, but I felt all of them would be needlessly disconcerting, and even distressingly gruesome, to a lot of readers.
For much the same reason, I used the term "baby" in PARADISE, rather than "fetus," though either term would have been technically correct.
At the end of this message, I'll include the general-usage North American Dictionary definitions of some of these terms so that you can consider them for yourself.
I suppose at this point, I ought to tell you that when I wrote about what happened to Meredith and why her baby didn't survive, I didn't need to look it up in any reference book. I have very vivid, chillingly gruesome memories of what my sister's OB/GYN referred to as a "Spontaneous Abortion." My sister had two of them, one during the sixth month of her pregnancy, and another during the fifth month of her next pregnancy. The second one occurred one night when we were both visiting our parents, and the baby didn't survive.
The first "SA" occurred around the middle of my sister's sixth month of pregnancy. She made it to the hospital that time, and a tiny baby boy was born, then rushed by ambulance (while being baptized on the way at my sister's heartbroken request and given the name "Christopher") to the neo-natal ward at Cardinal Glennon Hospital for Children.
My sister's obstetrician warned us that the baby "was too little" to survive which translated in medical terms to the fact that at 6 months plus some days, his little lungs couldn't function properly. At Cardinal Glennon, we were told that no baby born that prematurely had ever survived, but they fought for him anyway and for days we hung around the window of the neo-natal ward, watching him struggle to breath with life support systems doing most of the work. He was the most beautiful baby I'd ever seen, tiny and perfect, even with his head shaved and IV's running into his scalp. We stood at the window, each of us unknowingly breathing in whatever tempo he was.
I've told you all that because it relates to another issue our BB member brought up in her long ago post that started this topic:
quote:Meredith lost Elizabeth in her 6th month, that's not a miscarriage that's a still birth. In fact it might not have even been a still birth - Meredith mentions that Elizabeth was too little to be saved, which makes me think Elizabeth survived labor and died after birth. And as such it really bothers me that Meredith et al refer to the loss of Elizabeth as a 'miscarriage'.
Obviously, my own personal experience says otherwise. However, my experience was more than 30 years ago, PARADISE was written 15 years ago, and medical science has made advances in neo-natal care by leaps and bounds. For example, not long after baby Christopher was born huge advances were made in dealing with tiny premature lungs. Today, babies who were born much earlier than he was, are able to survive.
The thing to remember is that things change, experiences vary and color our opinions, but the experiences are equally authentic and the conflicting opinions are equally valid. It's good to keep all of that in mind when we ponder something we've read.
PS--
Last month, Chris took me to dinner while he was in Houston on business. He insisted on paying the bill, too. I think he put me on his expense account.
Oh, and by the way, he is still gorgeous!
Did I mention that for several months after he was born, he was the youngest baby on record to survive? Very soon afterward, however, those medical advances I referred to began taking place, and before he was a year old, he'd lost that particular distinction.
posted
I forgot to post the dictionary definitions I referred to in my last message. Here they are:
Miscarriage—
1. premature expulsion of fetus. An involuntary ending of a pregnancy through the discharge of the fetus from the womb at too early a stage in its development for it to survive.
Technical name "Abortion"
Also called "Spontaneous Abortion."
Fetus—
1. Unborn offspring. An unborn vertebrate at a stage when all the structural features of the adult are recognizable, especially an unborn human offspring after eight weeks of development
Baby--
Unborn child. A child that is still in the womb.
Posts: 1036 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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posted
As to whether Meredith and Matt ever went together to visit Elizabeth's grave--of course they would have. You know the kind of people they were--how could anyone doubt they would have done that?
As to why I didn't show them visiting Elizabeth's grave in PARADISE--I didn't do that because enough is enough. There's a line of distinction between writing a scene that is painful and wrenching, but cathartic versus writing a scene that is just plain maudlin. Maybe it's just me, but I have limits on how much fictional sorrow I'm willing to endure. Or inflict on readers. Posts: 1036 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Judith McNaught: ... Because PARADISE was a novel that was going to be read by millions of women all over the world ... I chose the appropriate term as defined by the General Dictionaries we all use because this term was less daunting, less distracting, and less likely to be misunderstood and mistranslated. The term was "Miscarriage." Had I used a somewhat more technical term from a Medical Dictionary, it would actually have been "Spontaneous Abortion." I don't have to tell you how badly misinterpreted, misunderstood and mistranslated that term would have been. ...
Thank you Judith for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind using specific verbiage in your novels. It is quite a task, having to weigh and measure every word in the telling of a story, and one we are all grateful you are willing to take on. You are a brilliant writer, Judith, as I'm sure you've been told before.
-------------------- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
quote:Originally posted by Judith McNaught: Maybe it's just me, but I have limits on how much fictional sorrow I'm willing to endure. Or inflict on readers.
And that, Judith, is exactly why I read your books, and not the latest "Oprah Book Club" book! *g*
-------------------- *Shannon Vanderwild*
"If you knew this was your last day on earth - how would you want to spend it? Posts: 1432 | From: Nordstrom's Shoe Department | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Me too, Shannon, me too!!! If I want depressing, I'll watch the news. I stopped reading Danielle Steel and Sidney Sheldon because they had too much sadness in too many of their books. I'll only read one of their books if someone else reads it first and tells me how happy it is.
posted
I had the same experience as Tracey E I stopped reading DS because her books were so sad and depressing. JM's books are a myriad of emotions, they make you laugh and cry and even get angry then do it all over again.
-------------------- ~*Chasity & Paul Richardson*~ "Come home with me and let me show you how the gods meant for a woman to know a man." Julian of Macedonia Posts: 1615 | From: Home | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I totally agree with you Tracey and Shannon. I think a lot of authors today put their characters through personal crisis in order to get us to feel empathy for the character. I think it's easier to do that than to create genuinely likeable characters. Judith has the ability to create characters we can admire without having to torture them to get us to do it. Bren
-------------------- I'm so glad you're here I like it alot It's just not as much fun to be here When you're not Dr. Suess Posts: 5631 | From: ACOSW's back office | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Wow, its funny how many of us stopped reading DS because of that reason. A little crying is one thing, but her books depressed me. I love JM books because whenever there is something sad its the perfect amount of sad.
I also had the same happen to me with my 1st pregnancy in my 5th month, but in my situation I had a few weeks to prepare myself, there were a lot of complications that I found out when they did my first ultrasound. It was a very difficult time for me and my husband, but since then God has blessed me with two very healty children that have more energy than I could have imagined. In the real world am glad that I had my church family to help me and my husband heal.
posted
This is one of my favorite JM post. I love the story of her nephew. I remember the first time I read it I thought what a master story teller, even her post can bring out many different emotions.
So just wanted to bump it up to the top for those who had not seen it before. I hope you enjoy it.
Ivory
-------------------- Ivory
Life ain't always beautiful...but it's a beautiful ride. Gary Allen Posts: 1080 | From: Phoenix AZ | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'm not a cakeaholic. I only eat cake on special occasions. Like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday Posts: 646 | From: Niagara falls, ny | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
If I saw the original post, I don't remember, but I know I missed the response. Thanks for bumping it up!
Posts: 3732 | From: stone's throw from Washington D.C. | Registered: Jan 2002
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If you go to the FAQ post and scroll down they have a link to most of JM' post over the years. It is great reading and I highly recommend it. I greatly appreciate the person who has taken the time to list the post there. I am sure it takes a great deal of work, but it makes it handy for the rest of us.
The other thing you can do is a search of JM's member number which is 696. It will pull up 300 post at a time. You can do this for any member who you find a connection with if you want to see what they have posted in the past.
Ivory
-------------------- Ivory
Life ain't always beautiful...but it's a beautiful ride. Gary Allen Posts: 1080 | From: Phoenix AZ | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
to tell you the truth that really did bug me to! which is why i dont like that book to much. What also bothered me is how Merediths father was such a heartless idiot! and she forgave him! i dont know how anyone can forgive that.
Posts: 254 | From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2005
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I almost burst into tears when you mentioned how your nephew Chris took you to lunch. Boo hoo! I had thought that he hadn't made it. How wonderful a story.
"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, than one thousand days as a sheep." Posts: 4673 | From: In the arms of Matt Farrell | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Wow, this is from a long time ago, but amazing how much thought needs to be put into every single thing that is written. I mean, I always knew it, but just.. it is really hard to express what you want to say and still have to be wary of the politics behind everything.
Thanks for sharing, Miss Judith!
-------------------- "Ba don tsawo a kan ga wata ba." --Hausa Posts: 722 | Registered: Feb 2006
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