quote:Originally posted by Kimberly Adcox Madison: How do I edit a post? I didnt mean to post the entire book on here...I just meant to get a paragraph or two...dang. I think I sprained my finger trying to scroll down...
The entire book? Nay. LOL
[ August 05, 2005, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: *Lady Jenny of Avalon* ]
-------------------- ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ Jenny ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ Posts: 587 | From: Vale of Avalon, home to Raffles green tea | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kimberly, I scrupulously avoid reading any uncopyrighted fictional work, so I only skimmed the first part of your piece, but I saw one thing that detracts from it and will mark you as an "amateur" in the minds of prospective editors:
You are using the characters' proper names way, way too often when you identify who is speaking. Substitute pronouns frequently because that steady repetition of their proper names will give your dialogue a "sing-song" chant.
And I'm enormously flattered by your enthusiasm.
Posts: 1026 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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Wow, I never really noticed just how many times the POV does switch in a JM novel... now that I think about it though, it really does happen a lot... That whole concept of only use the character's name before a transition in POV works amazingly. I'm gonna have to try that the next time I get my arse down to my story... Thank you Judith!
-------------------- ~Terri~
"To think I actually believe there are no such things as angels.” - Once and Always Posts: 279 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sharon, if I ever need a biographer, it will have to be you.
I have no idea where or how you find all these references to me. I never search the Internet for my own name. I did it once, five or six years ago, and I was utterly dazed by the amount of information, misinformation, discussion, and commentary about me. I gave up after checking out 2 or 3% of it.
I can't imagine how much more of it there must be now.
As to the information contained in this workshop:
quote:"Fiction Workshop #4 Point of View: Rules of Thumb":
One POV per scene. Story tension is greater when the reader doesn't know the non-POV character's internal reaction to the events right away.
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry over the sweeping scope and unequivocal certainty of that proclamation.
To understand my reaction and to arrive at your own conclusions as to whether or not that proclamation is entirely correct--or entirely absurd--do this: Open a copy of SOMETHING WONDERFUL and read from the top of page 76 to the bottom of page 78. In the span of those 3 pages--that one small portion of a scene, I changed points of view fifteen times.
Now, take a pencil and lightly draw through all the references to either Jordan's point of view or Alex's point of view, so that you can only read what one of them was thinking on those pages.
When you've done that, read the scene again. You will watch that scene loose all its tension, and its sparkle, and its edge. It collapses into a mundane, predictable kissing scene.
That Rule you quoted from Fiction Workshop #4 didn't originate with Nan Jacobs. She's simply imparting long-held beliefs and advice from other "experts" (including--God help us all--some editors.)
Gee, I wonder why editors are always rejecting manuscripts because they aren't fresh or compelling. Gosh, I wonder why disappointed readers often feel that same way about the books they buy.
The worse thing about that statement from Fiction Workshop #4 is that it's not just "dead wrong," it's worse than that: It's confusing because there's a small grain of truth in it which makes it seem logical. It also provides a convenient "crutch" for authors who could and should learn better ways to infuse tension into a scene.
Here's why I said it's confusing: There are instances when it's clever and necessary to deliberately omit a character's point of view, sometimes for even longer than just one scene. One instance where it's clever and necessary is when you want to coax the reader into drawing the wrong conclusions about a character.
An example of that is Clayton Westmoreland in WML. You never knew Clayton's POV until you were about 150 pages into the book! I wanted everyone to assume he was planning to make Whitney his mistress, so I kept his POV out of it. To keep him from becoming completely one-dimensional during that first 150 pages, I occasionally included his POV, but only when it was meaningless--or misleading to you.
To understand why I object to the Fiction Workshop statement as a dangerous "crutch" for authors, look again at what it says:
quote:Story tension is greater when the reader doesn't know the non-POV character's internal reaction to the events right away.
Sure, the tension is greater, and without tension, there's no book. But there are other, much better, much less predictable ways to achieve tension than keeping readers in the dark during alternate chapters!
Furthermore, readers aren't stupid. In a short time, they realize when they start a new chapter, they aren't going to learn anything about Character A in it, because Character A's POV was in the last chapter. So this new chapter will be from Character B's POV. And now that we finished Character B's chapter, here we are at the next chapter, which will be Character A's.
Think for a moment about what happens when you swing someone slowly and rhythmically back and forth...back and forth...back and forth...back and forth. They start...going to...sleep….
The thing I fear and hate most about all the stultifying rules and guidelines dispensed in seminars for romance writers is this: If potentially outstanding authors believe in all that stuff and follow it, then they will never be able to achieve the level of writing and success they're capable of achieving.
If you don't believe it, look what those rules and guidelines would have done to me, and my work, if I'd believed and followed all that.
Oh, and while you're contemplating that, throw this into the mix: When I started writing, the guidelines prohibited humor in series romances, too! I told you all in a previous post that when Harlequin bought Tender Triumph in 1980, there was a big outcry in the editorial department because TT violated their long-standing editorial belief that "women do want humor in their romances."
In fact, I just remembered two other hard and fast Harlequin rules I inadvertently broke with that same first contemporary romance of mine—I opened the book with the hero, instead of the heroine, and I had multiple points of view!
The only reason I didn't stick to those rules and guidelines was because I had absolutely no idea they existed. Believe me, if I'd known what the rules and guidelines were, I wouldn't have violated them, because I wanted my books to be published.
And If I'd known what the rules and guidelines were, you would never have heard of WML or SOMETHING WONDERFUL or ALMOST HEAVEN or PARADISE, etc, etc. I'd have grown bored and frustrated and given up.
I agree with everything JM said! I know some people think Ramon from TT is a chauvinist, but I can remember reading that story way back when and understanding where he came from and why he did the things he did, especially for the time it was written. His POV was so different from Katie's that I wondered if they would ever find their way to each other.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1847 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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Thank you so much for taking time to share with us tips on writing, Judith. I've been keeping an archive on all these for future references when I write, so I truly appreciate all these. Especially that tip about changing POV of Kimberly and Matt. And may I add, by using Matt's name you have now given cause for much dissatisfaction among the ladies on the board. LOL. Kimberly, I'm happy for you. Oh, and watch for my email on your book. It'll come soon. This thread has been very informative, thanks for sharing your story, Kimberly.
-------------------- Jen Posts: 1238 | Registered: May 2005
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Judith...thanks for taking the time to offer budding writers like myself your advice. That you would even take the time to read ONE sentence is more than I could ever hope for. How many aspiring authors can say that Judith McNaught read a few words of their unpublshed work?
I have got to get to work on this thing. I have been trying to do what i thought "felt" right and waht I thought would feel right to the reader.
I can honestly say that I have tried and tried to have POV explained to me in a way that I could apply it but it was never explained so 'user friendly' as when you stated it.
I have to admit though that I changed a few "he's" to Michael and a few "she's" to Olivia trying to apply your rule before I posted it and it would appear that I 'buggered' it up even worse. I need to re-read your earlier post about how you get around it and see what I'm not getting. I can tell you what I am "getting" though...some Prozac. Today. Before I delete every copy of that book off of my computer from frustration.
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I'm sorry I didn't mention this before in my posts. I was too nervous posting about my own story. lol Anyway, Kimberly and others who have stories, I'd love to read them. My email is in my profile.
I'm with you on the POV perspective (as Kimberly will be able to tell you later) I switch POV often also, I'm understanding the point where you said that if you use one chapter for Character A's POV, and then the next for Character B's it becomes repititous, and BORING, or makes the reader tired.
So that is why when I sat down to write my book, I often switch POV, not really a head hopping like they say it is bad to do, but a definite switch so that the reader is always in the certain characters "head".
Unless I would have a character similar to Clayton, and leave the reader out for a hundred pages or so, WHICH WAS BRILLANT, if you would like to know, just from a reader's standpoint!
Thanks for all the advice! Trish
-------------------- Laissez les bons temps roulez!!!
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Judith, I am interested in "rules" for books in the romance genre. Do editors and publishers have the same type of "rules" for books in other genres? Are these rules more stringent for romance? It seems that screenplays for movies might be another genre where editors have a lot of “rules” about what needs to happen.
I ask because it seems rather insulting for both the reader and the writer to declare something like, "Women do not like humor in their romances." Are other books (for example, books geared towards men ) subjected to the same level of scrutiny?
***
By the way, Hi! I'm a new poster! I discovered this message board last week, and it is amazing! The level of camaraderie is wonderful, and against my better judgment (I really should be working), I keep coming back! Judith, your posts are amazing -- insightful, warm, witty, and infinitely fascinating.
Ok, a bit about myself. The first Judith McNaught book I read was Paradise. I think I was 15 at the time, and I loved it! I quickly read all the rest of the McNaught books I could find in our local library. When I finished, I started looking for other books to read. While I read some good ones, in general, the books I read were disappointing. Part of the disappointment came from a suspicion that there seemed to be weird "rules" that governed the plotlines of the books. I took a long hiatus from reading romance novels until recently when my friend gave me two romance books. Again, I noticed these weird “rules” again. In both of these books, there were prolonged, awkward exaggerated discussions about using condoms. Now, I'm for safe sex as much as the next person, but it just seemed really WEIRD that these scenes would take place in two different books by two different writers. It seemed that someone at this publishing firm had decided that they needed to promote safe sex, and while I believe the message admirable, I felt manipulated.
Reading Judith’s posts about her writing process, I realized that what I loved about her books is that there is an integrity – a realness – to her characters and stories. Without knowing anything about Judith, her books seemed to have a genuine respect for her readers’ intelligence, sense of humor, and compassion. Now that I have read some about your writing process – and what you think about as your craft scenes -- I am so pleased that what I had felt was true! Thank you for your books. I am a researcher now, and I find that every summer – in between classes, and reading esoteric books about statistics, monkeys, and poverty (long story) – I’m always drawn back to reading a Judith McNaught book. And when a new one isn’t available, I pull out an old favorite!
Posts: 37 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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I may suck as a writer but I am a very discerning reader. I started reading as a hobby in the second grade (Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing was my favorite!) and then moved on into the Sweet Valley High series as I got older. The point of my rambling is this: I am offended sometimes that a publishing house would waste paper, ink and most importantly my time on TRASH. I feel insulted as a reader that they bothered to publish a particular title. I know that sounds harsh but its true. And then an author like Judith McNaught comes along and you are in absolute AWE that someone managed to put such compelling words on paper and you say a prayer of thanks that someone was smart enough to snatch her up and keep her writing. I remember when I first read WML. I can recall thinking to myself that books so well written are not an every day or even every year occurance and I should be thankful that I was fortunate enough to happen upon it.
[ August 05, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Kimberly Adcox Madison ]
You're right on target with everything you've assumed and observed--including the #(!@* condoms.
quote:Do editors and publishers have the same type of "rules" for books in other genres?
Surely you jest? This profusion of rules and guidelines exists only in the romance genre where the books are written for, and by, women. The other genres all include male readers, and male writers, and--good heavens--no sensible editor, publisher, or agent would ever dare to presume they could successfully gauge the tastes of every male reader in a genre. Why, that would be an insulting generality.
No editor, publisher, or agent would want to heap limitations and guidelines and rules on male writers. That would not only insult their intelligence, it would restrict their creativity.
Males don't need restrictions and guidelines levied on their reading material or their writing skills. Males are a more intelligent, diverse, and discerning sex, you see.
Besides that, males wouldn't put up with it!
And on a more humorous note--there would never be an equivalent of an RWA for a male-oriented genre, either. And can you guess why? The answer is that RWA couldn't exist if published romance authors weren't willing to teach unpublished authors everything they've learned themselves about writing and being published, so that the unpublished authors can then--compete with them for their own jobs!!!
Now it may seem at times like there's an unlimited number of romances being published annually, but the reality is that there's a relatively tiny number of publishing "slots" available--and there are an enormous number of published authors already competing for them.
So, now let me ask you something: In your wildest imagination can you envision 3,000 men forming an organization so that they can teach 12,000 other men how to compete successfully for one of those 3,000 cherished writing careers?
Can you imagine those 3,000 male authors feeling an altruistic obligation to help other men compete against them for a writing career that is dearer to them than anything except their own families? ROFL
We are by far the better sex.
And in the case of the idiotic guidelines and rules imposed on women's romances, we are, as usual, our own worst enemies. The editors and agents who are foisting that nonsense off on us as if we're a herd of inferior sheep are--you guessed it--women!
posted
Hahahaha, the only thought going through my head when I first started reading that post was, 'A little frustrated, Judith?'
And all that proves is that while females MAY be the better sex, ALL we do is make our lives a living hell =). It keeps things interesting.
-------------------- ~Terri~
"To think I actually believe there are no such things as angels.” - Once and Always Posts: 279 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Those numbers are staggering. You can see why some authors have wait years and years before ever getting a manuscript sold...I wonder if there are some statistical comparisons that could be made such as 'You are more likely to give birth to a litter of puppies than you are to get published'.
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CAN I PLEASE CLAIRFY WHAT I MEANT ON THE POST ABOVE GRETCHENS!!! LOL! My pointing out the fact that I read the Sweet Valley High series is that I have read most of my life and from a very young age...not that I think reading SVH make me qualified to delcare another book unworthy. I made it look like reading those was this big literary acheivement (it was when I was 15!)!
Y'all were probably thinking some legislators really needed to do something about the education problem in Alabama!
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Judith, I see where the witty, sarcastic dialog in your books comes from now! :-) Thanks for the response … I think my mind is spinning in ten million directions right now.
I did not know that RWA had such an elaborate structure to support new writers, and it is quite astounding. While I initially thought the “rules” for writing romance novels were insulting and downright offensive, I began to reflect on the number of times I’ve worked with students and wondered how many times in frustration, I packaged my writing “advice” into simple do’s and don’ts simply because the message was easier to convey … more efficient.
And then I think about myself, a very “junior” person in academia. I write nonfiction, and almost no one wants to read what I write. But I am often asked, What is your identity? What voice do you uniquely bring to the field? And to be honest, I am still not sure. There are days when I think, I am a curious person. I’m smart, why can’t someone just assign me an identity? I am sure if they did, I would be very good at it. And then recently, a male faculty advisor made the following comment to me, “It’s interesting. I have many male and female students. The male students can be impossible. They are pig-headed, they never listen. They think they have all the big ideas. The female students – they are conscientious. They learn quickly. They do what you ask, and then some more. However, the problem with many of my female students is that when I ask them what they want, they hesitate.” I picture John Forbes in A Beautiful Mind who said that he never went to class because he was looking for his Original Idea (and won a Nobel prize) … I, however, am aghast with the notion!
And this is why I think your advice to Kimberly is so valuable for all women – writers or not. Because I think that while girls and women have become very adept at learning what others say they are supposed to learn, they – me included – have not been very good about asserting their own voices, challenging authority, and pushing boundaries. I could see myself asking for the “rules” on how you would write something correctly, and then feeling utterly confused because I would have no idea how to make it work within my story. As I look at my shelves of style guides and writing books, I think I probably would have shown up at every writing seminar and taken copious notes… Hopefully, afterwards, I would have seen what you wrote … which is that writing – and thinking – is a solitary exercise. Who you are ultimately … has to come from you. Maybe the key is to balance wisdom, experience, and techniques learned by others … with your own something special. Wouldn’t we be a force to be reckoned with then?
I guess if we women weren’t here to make our lives super complicated … who else would be smart enough to do so? (Except the brilliant, wonderful heroes in your books, of course). LOL.
Okay, so now I have to reread all your books to look at this POV-thing :-)
Posts: 37 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Thanks Judith for the valuable information. You are such a generous lady to extend your heart and talent here. I hope you don't get into any trouble for being so honest and outspoken. There are so many fools in the world today who like to cause trouble and make a fuss for no apparent reason. I can easily see why you have so many admirers. I hope your fans will also be supportive of your endeavors. You have been very helpful and encouraging to your readers. Your strength of character gives them strength. Your listening ear embraces them. Your heart reaches into their souls and you make their lonely world complete through your writing. You have a magical way with everyone. A genuine compassion that comes from within. I appreciate your guidance and free advice. The golden knowledge you've passed on has been priceless. You're motivating people to step outside the box. You've also inspired and enchanted us. I think you're very brave to speak out like you do. You seem very sincere and unbiased. I can't believe you're so down to earth and kind. You've really gone out on a limb here many times here. I hope your readers will offer their support and generosity in return. How could they not help but love you. It's refreshing to find an author that's gifted in more ways than one. I'm glad you have an army to benefit from your work. You're helping people to grow through your life experience. It's inspiring to watch you pass your magic onto others. That takes a special kind of person. You break the mold. (I think everyone should invite their family and friends to our circle)
Posts: 2309 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Hi everyone! I am new to this bulletin board and honestly, when I wandered in, I felt that I had come home! Prophetic, right?! I am an aspiring writer, having written four chapters of my first historical(This is not including the three others I have stopped due to getting stuck!) LOL! Anyway, I have one question, What are your writing schedules? I work 5 days a week, am married and have 3 children (ages 12, 8, and 2). It seems I get started then other tasks pull me away and I never meet my goal of 20 pages/week. Any suggestions?
By the way, can I say how awesome it is to be on the same bb as the Judith McNaught?! ohmigod! Posts: 25 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hi Jennifer, I eat, sleep breath for writing. I write daily. I carry my laptop everywhere I go. I keep a journal of thoughts and ideas. I research daily and look for inspiration everywhere. I am obsessed with writing. I've decided it's better than sex, shopping and travel. It's a healthy obsession. I don't mind if I become fat, unhealthy, blind and lazy. It's what pleases me most! Writing is the first thing that comes to mind when I awaken and the last thing before going to bed. I plot while sleeping and turn dreams into stories. I keep my mind diciplined. I'm dedicated and very determined to bring my dreams to life. Good luck!
Posts: 2309 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I only joined this board recently and was reading through some of the older posts. I was reading one where you said that when you wrote W,ML that you didn't know what the 'rules' were.
Why didn't you tell me that 6 years ago when I decided to join a creative writing class!!
There were 7 other students all female with only me writing romance. (I ignored the looks, as I enjoyed both reading and writing romance for the roller coaster journey and if they didn't appreciate that then they had been reading the wrong books). My tutor was male.
Anyway to be fair to him he did take on board that I wanted to write romance and tailored some of his classes to acknowledge my choice. While pointing out to the rest of the class that he was doing this for me. (Again ignoring the looks).
He began by explaining that you only use one POV. Hold on, I thought you only use one POV in other books because they were the story of the main character. Whilst for romance you use 2 POV because the story was about both characters. That just seemed so logical to me. Hey thats what I liked most about romance. (OK at this point the majoirty of romance books I had read were yours, as for historicals I live in England and at the time the only historicals I could find were yours.) So up pops my hand and I start to cite how you use 2 POV in your books. The tutor gives the look that says 'she is the exception and she is wrong'.
Next he tries to tell me that in romances the hero and heroine must meet in the first few pages, if not the first page.
Up goes my hand. But in W,ML by JM you don't get to meet the hero until you are about 1/4 of the way in and the reader has already spent 4 years with the heroine. (I notice the looks of the other students, now I am beginning to feel conspicuous.)
Finally the tutor gives in and asks who this author is and the book title. So I tell him. I do not know if he ever read it, what I do know is he never tried to impart any more of the 'rules' for romance writing to me. I like to assume that he decided he couldn't teach me anything as I was already learning from the best.
Needless to say when the class ended I did not enrole for the following year.
Anyway thanks for sticking by your guns with W,ML and making it such a success as otherwise it would never have made it into a mainstream bookstore in England where I spotted it, which inevitably lead me to find the genre I love so much.
Elaine Posts: 3 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Thanks so much for your encouraging advice. I too constantly think about plots, characters, first scenes, witty dialogue, etc, etc, etc.... Currently I have storylines for about 5 books. Sigh, if only I had all the time to work on them.
I will take your comments to heart, besides, just think of all the practice I am going to get writing all those books until the first one gets published! LOL!
Jennifer
Posts: 25 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Aug 2005
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I'm happy to know that some of you feel you benefitted from another...egad "point of view"...on points of view.
Sherry, it's very sweet of you to worry that my outspoken commentary in this topic will get me into trouble, but with whom? HUGE
To illustrate why I'm so amused, let's take another look at the quotes that prompted my frank messages here about the "guidelines" for POV:
quote:And from Nan Jacobs, "Fiction Workshop #4 Point of View: Rules of Thumb"...However, rules can be broken. Nora Roberts and Judith McNaught, best-selling romance writers, head-hop all the time.
Hmmm. I "head-hop" all the time. Somehow "head-hopping" doesn't sound exactly like an achievement. Was that meant as a sincere compliment to me do you think?
If you're in doubt about the answer, let's look at the next quote:
quote:Rebecca Vinyard...has this to say:
If you aren't a Nora Roberts or a Judith McNaught, this can make your readers dizzy and confused. Lord help you if your reader is a writer, because some I've known (okay, including me) will throw the book across the room if the POV changes five times in a single paragraph. It's frustrating...argh!
Call me over-sensitive but although Ms. Vinyard's first sentence implied that I don't make readers dizzy with my POV changes, I think her second sentence nevertheless damns my poor books to an ignominous fate involving plasterboard should they fall into the hands of any writer.
On the other hand, maybe that's not entirely true, based on her next quote:
quote:What do Nora and Judith know that we don't know? Transitions. These ladies are very, very, good at making smooth changes from one character's POV to the next.
After reading the last part of that, I sort of get the feeling that Nora and I are regarded as being very, very good at doing something that really doesn't need to be done at all--and in fact, should not be done.
MORE GUFFAWS, here--Sorry, but this cracks me up for a bunch of reasons...
Never mind the reasons. For now, let me tell you why you don't have to worry that my outspokenness here about this topic will get me into trouble with anyone: Look again at my messages in this thread. Nowhere do I refer unfavorably to another author. Even when I rebutted what Nan Jacobs' said in her seminar, I said very clearly that she was only passing along what editors and guidelines are calling for.
You can search the world-wide web, along with every article in every writer's publication and every transcript from every seminar, and you will never find a quote from me that is in any way unfavorable about another author's style--not even in self defense of my own. That fact is probably as widely known among romance authors as the fact that I constantly "head-hop"---but, oh so smoothly. ROFL
Oh--I just realized you may be worried about how some editors would react if they ever saw copies of my outstpoken messages here in this topic.
Well, I don't want you to be upset, but I can virtually guarantee you that within the next week or two, copies of my messages here will be faxed to editors who've publicly taken a stand against more than one POV per chapter. The authors who send them to their editors will attach an inflammatory note that says something like, "Judith McNaught obviously thinks she knows everything and you're a moron. Sorry, I hope you won't be upset, but I thought you'd better be aware of what the woman is telling everyone..."
That happens all the time when I speak out strongly here. Sooner or later, usually sooner, that editor tells another editor who tells another editor who mentions it to an author who mentions it to another author who has an editor who knows my editor. Do I get into trouble?
For what? For encouraging other authors to listen to their own inner voices, to learn new things and find better ways, so that they can emerge from the stampede and shine? No, I don't get into trouble for that--because in every worthwhile editor's heart, she secretly dreams that she'll be the one to discover the next author who does exactly that.
And do you know who the next author will be to shine? She'll be the one who reads all those quotes about Nora Roberts and me getting away with changing POV's because our transitions are so smooth--and instead of letting that convice her to have only one POV per chapter, this author will be determined to discover how Nora and I make it work, so that she can do it for her readers, too.
If you're wondering why I don't tell someone how I make it work, the answer is I don't know how I do it. I thought I knew one thing I did to smooth the transition from one person's pov to the others, so I told Kimberly about it in this same topic. I made a mess out of her dialogue, without realizing she was trying to follow my instructions, and I sent her a prompt post saying, "you're using proper names way, way, too often!"
But you know what--the above paragraph does prove the core of what I've been saying all along: There ARE NO ABSOLUTES ABOUT WRITING--THERE ARE NO SURE-FIRE RULES FOR WRITERS TO FOLLOW. Therefore, romance writers should not be given given rules and guidelines.
Which I think translates to "even when I'm wrong, I'm still right." Embarrassed
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Just your willingness to help aspiring authors has me so fired up! THANK YOU FOR GIVING THAT BACK TO ME! I have written more this past weekend than I have in months and even made the decision to seek other representation. I just can't "sell" my ms for thirty days after written notification and I sent the letter on Friday. I have already been invited to submit the first fifty pages to an agency (she allows email query letters!). I did however recieve a BRUTAL rejection letter from an agent and its hard not to let it get you down. But what is one more among fifteen? I am frantically working on implimenting the pov technique you explained. I printed out your post and read it several times until it "clicked".
I CANNOT STOP MAKING REVISIONS on the same fifty pages and I fell like a drug addict trying to get a fix....
posted
Elaine, that's a cute post. I know there are tricks I could learn and benefit from if I took a creative writing class, but I'm afraid I'll end up doubting what I do know.
One of my favorite and most inwardly embarrassing moments was when I was waiting to give the keynote address at an RWA annual conference in Dallas about 6 years ago. My assistant was with me and I had time on my hands, so we tiptoed into a seminar that was underway near the ballroom where I was to give the keynote.
(To appreciate this story, I should add that I never wear a conference badge and I'm seen so rarely at conferences that no one ever expects me to be there. So no one recognizes me...)
Anyway, my new assistant and I took a seat in the back row of a seminar where the speaker was warning the audience about the perils of "Author Omniscient" because it can be very disruptive to the story. He said however, that there were a few authors who nevertheless insisted on interposing themselves as Author Omniscient, and occasionally it was "quite well done."
My assistant leaned over and whispered, "What is 'Author Omniscient?'"
I held my hands palms up and whispered, "I have no idea," which made me feel the way I always feel when I attend a writer's conference--Inept and Uninformed.
The speaker then read an example from the work of one of those authors who insists on interposing herself as 'Author Omniscient' but he stipulated that this instance was actually, "Quite Well Done."
He then read this paragraph:
quote:High on a secluded Colorado mountaintop, laughter rang out often during a long winter afternoon, startling the squirrels who watched from the trees while two humans shattered the peace, cavorting like children in the snow, chasing each other around trees, flinging a barrage of snowballs, and then got down to the business of completing a snowman that, when finished, resembled no other snowman in the annals of recorded history.
I was laughing so hard that I had to clamp my hand over my mouth, and the writer on my other side glared at me as I bailed out of my chair, across her legs, and headed for the door.
My assistant instantly stood up and followed me, but with no idea why I was making such an abrupt exit, until the speaker added from the podium,
"That was from PERFECT by Judith McNaught, and it was actually very good, because she used O-A there in order to..."
At that announcement, my assistant clamped her own hands over her mouth and hit the exit door with her shoulder, nearly knocking me on my face on the other side of it.
We hurried a few yards away and when we both stopped laughing, she said, "You don't know what Author Omniscient is, but you do it anyway?"
I nodded and said, "And 'quite well,' evidently," then we laughed ourselves into fits.
When we finally stopped laughing, my assistant tried to make sense of the speaker's last sentence. "You used Author Omniscient there in order to--what?" she asked. "Why?"
I said, very authoritatively, "Because it felt right."
I'm a story-teller, no more and no less.
Feel a little better, Elaine? Posts: 1026 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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posted
OMG that is so funny! Did the speaker ever find out that you were in there?
I feel really stupid right now, because I still don't understand waht author omniscient is!
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1847 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
No, I'm sure the speaker never knew I was there.
I can't help you with the official definition of A-O. I understand instinctively what it is, but for a definition here's the best I can do: As an author, I function as the "narrator" of the story, but as soon as possible, I pull back and disappear, leaving the story to be told through my character's eyes. But sometimes--just for fun, or for some other reason--I "reappear."
Here's a typical example that's true of many first pages in a novel. In WML, the book opens with a narration:
quote:As their elegant travelling chaise rocked and swayed along the rutted country road, Lady Anne Gilbert leaned her cheek against her husband's shoulder and heaved a long, impatient sigh. "Another whole hour..." etc.
Until Lady Anne begins to speak in the above example, I am "narrating." You are seeing the scene through my eyes.
On that same page, I add a little more narration.
quote:As a diplomat attached to the British Consulate in Paris, Lord Gilbert was a master of hints, evasions, innuendoes, and intrigues. But in his personal life, he preffered the refreshing alternative of blunt truth. "Allow me to...."
Until Edward begings to speak, I'm narrating, but after that, I withdraw almost entirely from the scene and reveal everything else to you through Lady Anne and Lord Gilbert's eyes.
Whenever you're seeing things through the eyes of the characters, it is not A-O. Even when I'm telling you how a character feels, it's not really A-O, because the character knows how they feel.
It becomes A-O when I suddenly tell you something in my own voice that the characters aren't seeing or feeling or noticing.
Here's an example. Watch closely in this segment from In Chapter 19 of WML: In it, Whitney is worried that Clayton will figure out she's faking her injured knee, and then she dismisses the matter by saying breezily,
quote:"Whether he thinks I'm lying or not, what can he possibly do about it?"
(A-O:)The answer to that question arrived shortly after luncheon in a sleek, black-lacquered Westmoreland travelling coach drawn by four prancing black horses in silver harnesses. A somberly garbed, portly gentlement alighted from the conveyance and proceeded briskly toward the house. In his left hand he carried a large black leather bag..."
Do you see me suddenly appear there? Whitney asked a qustion in dialogue. I answered the question by saying, "The answer to that question..."
Aunt Anne wasn't making that observation, or Whitney, or Clarissa. The narrator appeared. I did it there for comic reasons.
I appeared as the narrator/A-O in that segment from PERFECT, too, but I did it there because I wanted to pull way back (like a camera taking a "long shot" of a scene.) I wanted all of us to have a new view from high above of these two special people--who had a whole lot of dire problems facing them--playing like children in the snow.
There was a sweetness to the scene from that high overhead view.
I'm not sure if this helps, but it's the best I can do.
posted
Judith...you are truely a puppet master with words.
I'm curious... when working on a manucript, do you start with a basic foundation, then manipulate each scene through revisions by adding more and more descriptions or does most of your descriptive writing happen in the early stages?
i too wanted to know a little bit more about what author omniscient was when i read this post earlier, i had a vague idea but i wanted to confirm it so i looked up the definition online but i thought you did a better job on explaining it, it is much easier to understand with examples from stories i have read...but the text book definition that i found is this.... "Narrator (author-omniscient): sees all, knows all. Story is told, not shown, from author’s own vantage point. Rarely used in romance." i just thought that was interesting...lol
well anyways thank-you for all of your posts on this topic its been amazing and very informative! i know we all really appreciate them
So that is what "Author Omniscient" means. I have been trying to put into words what it is I love about how you narrate the story and that sums it all up. You are indeed the best.
Well, I think the author is complimenting you in the article about POV. I guess it means that with others, she wants to throw the book across the room, but you and NR are exempted, I think. LOL!
Your biographer? How exciting!! LOL! Uhm, I still got some more articles citing you as the example. (Coz I'm working on something ). Want to read them too? Another interesting article you might be interested.
-------------------- ***Formerly known as Sharon Sandini***
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time but to leave unsaid the wrong things at the tempting moment." -Anonymous? Posts: 2957 | From: Here, There and Everywhere | Registered: May 2003
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Now I completely understand. The change between the narrator and the characters is so subtle, that when you are reading you don't even see it. It flows perfectly! I now understand what you are talking about, I guess I just didn't realize there was actually a name for it. LOL.
Thanks for explaining.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1847 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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OMIGOD, Sharon--That guy's site is about how to get it on with women! ROF&L He has male subscribers. He's recommending my books and Nora's to help his subscribers figure out what they're doing wrong...
I have tears in my eyes from laughing.
I'm off our BB for now and going back to work full time. But what a way to go! Posts: 1026 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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I would like to say that he's not quite correct about this:
"That’s why 'nice guys' never get anywhere with women. And why if you’re 'kind and sensitive' ALL the time, women will treat you like a nice guy.
I was married to a guy that was a bit of an ass on the outside. He seemed kind and sensitive on the inside - - - but he really was just an ass in the end (no pun intended.) Now I'm with a wonderful man - 6' tall, light brown, soft, wavy hair, gorgeous glacier-blue eyes, a gifted writer/director/actor, and yes, a nice guy.
So ya know what? YAY FOR NICE GUYS!!!
G.
PS - Judith - when you mean that you are going to work full time, do you mean that you will be writing, or that you will have a regular 9 to 5 like the rest of us saps???? Posts: 2120 | From: Somewhere in Time | Registered: Aug 2005
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LOL Genella...that is because you learned your lesson with the first guy! I have seen it time and time again with my friends...their first husband was not very "nice" and the second one is wonderful.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1847 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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I was going out with a "nice guy" and I was so mad at myself for not being attracted to him. I knew I should be and people were telling me I was crazy but I just couldnt make a spark...UNTIL I overheard him letting somebody on the phone have it and I was like, "wait a minute...come to mama". When I decided that this thing could work after all he dumped me for his next door neighbor!
It would have never worked out anyway...last I heard he and his lovely wife had four kids and were moving to Arizona to be next to his mother.
posted
Judith Thanks for all the insight into the world of publishing. I especially enjoyed learning about AO and by using the samples you did, it became clearer yet.
quote:Here's an example. Watch closely in this segment from In Chapter 19 of WML: In it, Whitney is worried that Clayton will figure out she's faking her injured knee...
Are you sure it wasn't supposed to be ankle? LOL
Barb
-------------------- Barb
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~"I came here," Zack said, "because I can't live without her."~ Perfect Posts: 2342 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2003
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Oh, and watch for my email on your book. It'll come soon. 
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I am an aspiring writer, having written four chapters of my first historical(This is not including the three others I have stopped due to getting stuck!) LOL! Anyway, I have one question, What are your writing schedules? I work 5 days a week, am married and have 3 children (ages 12, 8, and 2). It seems I get started then other tasks pull me away and I never meet my goal of 20 pages/week. Any suggestions? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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ohmigod! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
How exciting!! LOL! Uhm, I still got some more articles citing you as the example. (Coz I'm working on something 
