posted
Ok, Nick Sinclair was always one of my least favorites. When a bunch of you voted for him as favorite hero I pulled out DS and reread it, figuring I missed something. And I still just can't like him! He laughs at Lauren when it comes up she was a virgin, he seduced her with the intent of never calling her again, then he sexually harrasses her on the job. What am I missing??
posted
Maybe you have to have a softness for a scarred hero with a deep-seated inferiority complex who tries not to feel too much, and represses those feelings that slip through the cracks? LOL...
In Nick's defense, he didn't know Lauren was a virgin, and it's not as if he seduced her just for kicks. Like most men, he wasn't aware he might be scarring her by engaging in what he thought was a mutually desired casual fling. With all due respect, a woman shouldn't expect a whole lot from a man when she sleeps with him on such short acquaintance. Men aren't trained to see every woman they sleep with as long-term material. lol. In that respect, Nick was super-normal.
I myself rather liked him, mostly because of the latter half of the book.
What bothered me more than anything else was that he smoked. lol. That's what *I* couldn't get past.
-- Jessica
-------------------- Ten men waiting for me at the door? Send one of them home, I'm tired. -- Mae West
posted
rotf! Well, if you haven't "got" him after the second go-around, maybe it's just a lost cause. If we were talking about Matt, I might have to try a little harder to convince you. *grin* As it is, though...
And no! I haven't seen the other thread yet. I'll go check it out.
-- Jessica
-------------------- Ten men waiting for me at the door? Send one of them home, I'm tired. -- Mae West
posted
Okay, I doubt I ever told you this before, but Nick Sinclair and DS were based on a family member's true story. Instead of a pretty pillbox, just subsitute a pearl-backed brush and comb set as the gift/bribe to Nick's mother.
In retrospect, I'm sure I wrote DS as a means to revenge.
As far as Tracy's comment that Nick sexually harrasses Lauren on the job, you're absolutely right, he did. However, in 1984 when DS was published sexual harrassment in the workplace was just...life as it had always been.
In order to be able to enjoy DS and TT, you almost have to regard them in the context of "historical novels." LOL
Many of the things I set up and wrote about in DS and TT were--at that time--hotly debated political women's issues. There are things in both books that should raise the hair on the back of the neck of any self-respecting feminist. Including me.
Would I ever consider writing TT and DS today? God no, not without a lot of changes! I still feel there is sufficient underlying merit in both stories to allow them to stay in print, however.
posted
Well phooey! Judith beat me to it. *grin* I was going to say that the key, in my opinion anyway, to enjoying Double Standards is to remember when it was written. Just as she said, when you take it as a "historical" novel, then I think you'll enjoy it more.
As for Lauren with Jim, I've always believed that he and Ericka ended up together. I once had a whole scenario in my head for just what happened if those 2 had their very own book. LOL
Shannon
-------------------- I have a perfect body. But it's in the trunk and it's starting to smell. Posts: 7593 | From: God only knows | Registered: Apr 2000
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I read DS in the 80s and remember thoroughly enjoy it. I wonder if I would have read it for the first time now, what I would have thought about it. I agree with Judith....sexual harassment, you bet, but that was the way it was back then.
Nick is a very charismatic character. He was dealt a bad egg as a mother, but persevered and made a success out of himself, despite his mother's rejection. I think her rejection was what lead him to be so non-committal to women. Lauren was able to show him that women can be trusted and loved.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1847 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Oh, JM, that makes me sick to my tummy. I used to get sad because the man I loved never had a train set when he was little--and this is SO much worse than that! If I knew his mother had lavished love on her other son, while withholding it from him, I'd probably have wanted revenge on his behalf, too. LOL! Thanks for the insight!
"Sufficient underlying merit" is a gross understatement, btw. Although...*wicked grin* If you took them out of print, the value of my signed 1st edition TT could only go up. rotf. I'm SO KIDDING! It would be a crime to take ANY JM book out of print. We'd have to organize a march or something.
-- Jessica
-------------------- Ten men waiting for me at the door? Send one of them home, I'm tired. -- Mae West
"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, than one thousand days as a sheep." Posts: 4654 | From: In the arms of Matt Farrell | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Thanks, and yes, he was my father. I should add here that I changed the locale and fictionalized some of the subsequent events in DS.
My mother revealed the story about the "pillbox" (actually, a comb,brush, and mirror set) when I was eleven or twelve, and unknowingly gave her a similar comb and brush present for her birthday.
The comb and brush set kept disappearing off my mother's dressing table after I gave it to her, and naturally I asked her where it was when that happened.
At first she pretended several times that she'd put the set away accidently. And then one day, when I was watching her get ready to go somewhere, (which was one of my favorite things to do), I noticed the set was gone again, and I asked her about it again.
I can still remember it as if it were last week: She hesitated, and then she turned around on the little upholstered stool at her dressing table, and she took my hands in hers and said, "I need to tell you a story about Daddy, when he was a little boy. Christmas was coming, and he asked his aunt and uncle to give him all sorts of extra chores because he needed to buy an extra-special Christmas gift for his mother...."
The oddest post script to that story is that although I treated my grandmother "frigidly" from that day onward on those rare occasions when I saw her, she was nicer by far to me than anyone who wasn't a part of her immediate "secondary" family.
I suspected, then and now, that on some level she recognized in me a developing hauteur and resolve equal to her own. Or perhaps she sensed that some day, somehow, I would find a way to even the score.
Well, at least you had your revenge. Oh how I so wanted to strangle and whack Carol Whitworth in the head the first time I've read DS. She's just evil. Now I totally detest her, because there is really someone out there like her.
Hugs again.
Sharon
-------------------- ***Formerly known as Sharon Sandini***
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time but to leave unsaid the wrong things at the tempting moment." -Anonymous? Posts: 2952 | From: Here, There and Everywhere | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I'm speechless. I was just browsing through the posts and I was surprised with this new information. I guess I always treated characters as just that ... fictional conjures of the mind, unless, of course, we WANT our storybook heroes to become real and marry them on message boards . I realize that every novel is a reflection of its author, and a part of he or she is immortalized within his or her work. I did not, however, expect DS to be so personal with you, Judith. Your father really must have been a wonderful man.
posted
Thanks for sharing that with us, Judith. Double Standards is my favorite contemporary novel of yours- as well as being the first book of yours I've read. That said, it's hard for it not to have a special place in my heart. And you gals, this might sound strange, but I actually didn't mind that Nick was acting like such a jerk and all. There are times when I prefer my heroes a wee bit nasty, for the sake of intrigue. It makes their grovelling in the end of the story a lot more satisfying, too. This is also the way I feel about Jason Fielding and Clayton Westmoreland, who happen to be my favorite JM heroes right after Ian. Perhaps it's because I find a perfectly nice hero perfectly boring. The fact that Ian Thornton is my favorite is actually surprising, considering that he's generally considered one of the nicer heroes. Posts: 881 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Jessica has done an awesome job with her "Sales talk" about Nick.
Hhhmmm, did we read the same book? LOL! j/k. I don't have DS with me since I'm at work so I'll try to recall things from memory.
It's because I never thought that Nick has laughed at Lauren when he learned she was a virgin. I think, he was even surprised and asked Lauren why she didn't tell him she is a virgin.
quote: Like most men, he wasn't aware he might be scarring her by engaging in what he thought was a mutually desired casual fling. With all due respect, a woman shouldn't expect a whole lot from a man when she sleeps with him on such short acquaintance. Men aren't trained to see every woman they sleep with as long-term material. lol. In that respect, Nick was super-normal.
Jessica has said it eloquently. Besides, I think it was Lauren who initially shown she was attracted to Nick, and Nick being the "super-normal (to borrow Jessica's word) man that he is, how could he resist?
It just so happens that Lauren has fallen for him hard, that is why, me as a reader, was also hurting for her, because of her yearning for Nick. And Nick was only thinking of having an "affair" with Lauren when she wanted commitment. And at first, I also frowned upon him when I read the part.
And besides, I don't think it was really sexual harrassment because Lauren was not unwilling.
However, all of the little things I don't like about Nick totally disappeared when I came to the part where Mary was telling Lauren about what happened to Nick when he was small. My heart was being wrenched and squeezed. And I already understood Nick then, though I still think he got away with what he did to Lauren way too easily.
Sharon
-------------------- ***Formerly known as Sharon Sandini***
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time but to leave unsaid the wrong things at the tempting moment." -Anonymous? Posts: 2952 | From: Here, There and Everywhere | Registered: May 2003
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posted
One more note on DS, and probably the most important to help you understand why I wrote it exactly as I did...
Back in 1982 when I wrote the manuscript, the "sexual revolution" was just beginning to emerge from the closet. However, at that point in time, men were the sole benefactors.
The line of baloney that Nick gave Lauren about sexual equality was just that--baloney. The truth was that men, and most of society, still regarded an unmarried woman who satisfied her sexual desires outside of marriage as promiscuous. The only difference in 1982 was that the birth control pill had become available, and so women also became solely responsible for getting themselves pregnant. In short, if she got pregnant, it was her problem, not his.
THOSE were the underlying messages/warnings I was sending with DS. Thankfully, most of that has changed now.
Posts: 1020 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Well, it *feels* like family but that doesn't necessarily mean you *see* it that way. Wanted to be sure!
And I put my finger on why this book always rubbed me the wrong way. I would have read it for the first time in the late 80's/early 90's. In my first job out of college (88), my boss's boss harassed me. I know the laws now but at the time either there were no laws or I was too naive to know them. That was my dream job and he kept me from loving it. When that was still fresh in my memory, I would have a total knee-jerk reaction to a character who did that.
posted
Judith, thank you so much for sharing that about your family, and I hurt for your father.
I've always loved Nick Sinclair, even his tuxedo shirt with ruffles.
K.
-------------------- "The fact is, sometimes it's hard to walk in a single woman's shoes. That's why we need special ones now and then to make the walk a little more fun."--Carrie, Sex and the City Posts: 3663 | From: Under the covers cuffed to Jess | Registered: Apr 2000
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I'm just in the door from a few days away at the cottage and thrilled to find a discussion going on about "my man".
By sheer coincidence, I spent yesterday re-reading Double Standards, the first time in a long while, and thoroughly enjoyed every minute yet again.
Judith, I want to thank you for imparting the personal connection you have to Double Standards. It certainly makes the story more special for me.
Now, because my time is limited at the moment (I don't want to get into any trouble with the real hubby about not helping unpack the car), I thought I would resurrect an old post from 2002 that I wrote regarding my dear Nick and why he is the way he is, as a partial response to explain my take on this wonderful hero.
Here it is:
In order to understand and eventually forgive Nick for the way he treats women in general, and Lauren in particular, one must delve into his childhood and his non-existent relationship with his mother.
Losing his father at age 4 and then to be coldly dismissed by his mother directly afterwards, would have a severely negative effect on any child. I have no doubt that Nick's grandparents did the best they could, ensuring he had every opportunity to receive a good education and have a loving home. What they couldn't do was erase the devastating hurt he lived with all those years.
Children try so hard to please their parents. They look to their mother and father for love, acceptance, understanding, guidance and try to find a sense of worth and satisfaction in their lives by the actions and reactions of their parents. Nick's father was dead, and what of those qualities did his mother give him? None. She cast him aside, forgot him, rejected him. But what Carol Whitworth *did* do for Nick was to force him to summon up all his strength and courage, his sheer will to survive and go on and succeed. That drive and determination was what enabled Nick to continue, despite his pain. Is it any wonder that he grew up with a strong sense of distrust, anger and indifference towards women? Why would he want to love a woman after what he had experienced by the one person who should love him above everything else?
Lauren understood Nick fairly early in the book. On page 124, after having left the Cove, it states:
"She loved Nick, and she knew he liked her. Perhaps he had already begun to love her ... Perhaps that was why he had become so withdrawn and impersonal this morning! After thirty-four years of independence, and after being shunned by his own mother, Nick wouldn't like feeling dependent on a woman for his happiness. the more he felt himself caring, the more he would probably fight it, Lauren decided."
This was before Lauren had spoken to Mary and found out about the shiny new bike for the half brother, before she knew about the pill box. All she did know was that his mother had left him after his father's funeral, had married another man and had had another child. Lauren was smart enough to know that being abandoned by his mother would have tainted Nick's perception on how to have a loving relationship with a woman.
Too bad she wasn't smart enough to know that as soon as he suspected *she* had betrayed him too, he would lash out to protect himself, and shun her, like his mother had done to him. Should she have expected anything less?
Kerena
Oh, and Karen, I too can overlook the ruffles! I would welcome the chance to rip them off his chest, wouldn't you? LOL
[ September 05, 2005, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Kerena Sinclair ]
Posts: 1707 | From: The President's Suite, Global Industries | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
It is nice to know the background of one of my favorite books as it would make it that more special to me.
I know a lot of ladies here don't like either DS or TT but I always have. One of the reasons is because I read both of these books when they first came out in the 80's and fell in love with Judith's writing.
In the 80's, I was only reading Harelquin. It was very frustrating for me as I couldn't find anymore books by Judity published by Harelquin. So, I had did a lot of re-reading of these two books.
Living through the 80's, I know about the sexual harassment in the work place and the arrogance (sp) of men back then that was so common place back then. When I read these books, I usually do a trip down memory lane as these books are very real to me.
Thanks for the history of DS. I would like to think on the positive side that she was trying to make up to your father through you. But, then, again, I am glad you got her back for what she did to your father.
-------------------- You can give up MONEY for love. But, you never ever give up LOVE for money. The Montgomery's Family Motto. Posts: 2100 | From: Northern NJ | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Oh, and Karen, I too can overlook the ruffles! I would welcome the chance to rip them off his chest, wouldn't you? LOL
In the words of Mr. Big on Sex and the City, Absof***inglutely.
K.
-------------------- "The fact is, sometimes it's hard to walk in a single woman's shoes. That's why we need special ones now and then to make the walk a little more fun."--Carrie, Sex and the City Posts: 3663 | From: Under the covers cuffed to Jess | Registered: Apr 2000
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Ms Judith, thank you so much for sharing the story behind Double Standards. I could've never imagined its all too personal roots.
It is funny how I always understand all the time-range details in the book as with others but never did the same thing with TT. I honestly don't know why.
-------------------- ~Esmeralda~ Posts: 3539 | From: My own private corner of the world | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This is my second favorite JM post. For those of you who are new to the BB this is a great post about the back story. I hope you enjoy reading it today.
Ivory
-------------------- Ivory
You are who you are, no matter where I am...casting crowns Posts: 1057 | From: Phoenix AZ | Registered: Oct 2005
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Off topic, but how do you get your font to be a color?
As to Nick. He is one of my favorites. He is like every man I have ever dated lol. Deep issues of abandonment and he worries about nothing but himself. This is a defense so that he does't let himself care. He can't get hurt if the does that.
But.....Lauren should not have been put through so much!
-------------------- Paige Sevarin If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best Posts: 1130 | From: Redecorating the town house | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm not Jessica, but I can help you change your font color. Simply type < font color=blue > and your font will turn blue (or whatever color you decide to use) from that point on. You have to type it without the spaces after the first < and before the last > in order for it to work.
For a list of tons of colors you can use for text, check out this list of HTML color codes . Enter the color code listed instead of the color name and your font will become that color.
Hope that helps!
~Jenn P.S. I love Nick Sinclair!
Posts: 3496 | From: the arms of the delectable Jason Fielding | Registered: Apr 2000
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-------------------- Paige Sevarin If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best Posts: 1130 | From: Redecorating the town house | Registered: Jul 2004
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-------------------- Paige Sevarin If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best Posts: 1130 | From: Redecorating the town house | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Thank you for thinking of the new people Ivory.. I loved hearing about DS and JM had to say about.. I just finished re-reading it. I still loved it..so this was perfect timing..
-------------------- Sherri
What a long strange trip it's been!!! Posts: 120 | From: Overland Park KS | Registered: Jan 2006
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