posted
First of all ladies, i am so very very glad to be here again. i left the board because of my exams and im most excited to inform you all that i passed with rocketting colors!
I have recently read Tender Triumph and IMHO it SUCKS! No offence to JM and i know of the circumstances in which it was published (you not being a celebrated author then and all) but i simply think that this novel dragged. It had none of JM's other novels' charm and wit. The hero was excruciatingly male chauvanist and the fact that the heroine was already married didnt just click.
And know why i hate the novel so much? coz it made me DOUBT my judgement in reading other JM novels. I was literally thinking were all the JM novels this boring and cliche? this is why i hate the novel coz it made me doubt the credibility and magic of other JM novels. It made me wonder if i was in a stage then when i read JM novels and liked it, coz this sure sucks!
On a good note I read Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code but liked Angels and Demons far better. can anyone gimme a link if u have discussed their particulars?
I am now going to get WML or KOD to remove the ugly images of TT from my mind. I am sorry if any TT fans were hurt bcoz of this.
What hell of a come back. No wonder no one seems happy to see me back. how u doin Nikki. I am sure going to beat u now in "guess the hero"...
NADYA
-------------------- "Time cannot destroy it. Im that love--time cannot touch me. Time but changes the form. Somewhere in some time it will return. When u least expect it, the face of a loved one reappears. Look beyond the face and you will see ME." THE LAST VAMPIRE, CP. Posts: 241 | From: A Kingdom Of Dreams | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hi. While I don't feel as strongly as you do concerning "Tender Triumph" it wasn't my favorite. I liked it but it doesn't make the top of my list as favorites. I'm glad that you didn't let it discourage you from reading others. Look at all the great stories you would have missed out on.
Which is your favorite Judith McNaught book? Just curious.
posted
You are not alone. For my part, I don´t particularly hate it but I don´t see it as part of my re-read at all. I thought I felt this way because I´m from Mexico and all that Latin macho thing (where that came from?) doesn´t appeal to me.
posted
You are definitely not alone. I did a poll a while ago about people's least favorite JM novel and TT was definitely the overwhelmingly least favorite of ladies on this board, including myself. The poll and result is posted here on this board going maybe a couple of months back. Don't let TT discourage you from reading JM...IMHO, TT was an anomily as far as lack of feeling and believability in terms of the characters and their stories as compared to all JM novels. Continue reading the rest of her novels and you will not be disappointed again.
-------------------- JAN Posts: 673 | From: Paradise | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I know this topic has been hashed and rehashed dozens on times before...but, you must remember when the book was written. Without going and digging out my copy, I think this was written as a Harlequin originally in the 80s. The heroes at that time were almost always alpha males.
I reread TT not too long ago and actually found myself enjoying it. I agree that Ramon was quite over the top, but he definitely loved Katie...and IMO she was no prize until she decided to grow up in the end. For it being a Harlequin, I still thought JM brought some depth to each character...each had their own hurdles to overcome and past to face before they could actually find their way to each other.
I definitely hope you find her other novels more enjoyable.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1848 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Ramon wasn't the problem for me. If you think about it, most heros are macho and chauvenistic, okay it might be in a more subtle form, but they still are. We just happen to call them strong and in command, in charge, leaders, successful, etc. I really don't think Ramon was the problem. But Katie?? Couldn't stomache her the first read, nor the reread. Okay, I'll do another reread and see if I'll change my mind about her. I think I couldn't deal with her because I couln't associate with her, but I'll give it another shot. Barb you're right, JM did bring depth to the characters, if she didn't we wouldn't feel so strongly about whether we like, love or hate them. After all, I don't think anyone said anything neuteral about TT. It still evoked strong feelings from us. Sure hate may have been it, but I think it was hate for one or both of the characters that did this, not for her writing. I started reading a particular author once. I struggled from the first page. I must of struggled for about 3 chapters before I got my friend and reading cohort to skim through it to see if it was worth finishing. Her eyes glassed over just as quickly as mine did. I never finished it and it's the only book I ever traded in at a UBS. Thinking it might have been the storyline, I later tried another of this authors books only to have the same thing happen. Lucky I was in the library at the time, so I was spared the expense on buying it. It was her writing. I've read other authors where the books have been okay, but they did nothing to endear themselves to me. If you ask me have you read this particular book by this particular author, I'll say yes. What did I think of it? Well, I can't really say because it left no impression. Storyline was okay, main characters okay, but just no impression was made. TT left an impression. Ramon I understood, Katie I hated and the writing was great. (Did that make sense or did I just muddle it more?)
Sam
-------------------- If sex is such a natural phenomenon, how come there are so many books on how to do it? ~ Bette Midler Posts: 2227 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nadya I hope you'll not be dissuade from reading other JM books because of TT. I read it before I've read other JM novels and it never made me think that her other works suck too. And you are not alone with that opinion.
What I think of TT?
Well, I must say that of all JM novels, it's the one that took me days to read coz it kind of dragged on the first part. But in fairness to Katie's character - she got wit. Since I have read all of JM novels I can say though, that it would never be a favorite if I compare it with other JM novels.
But taking the book as itself, and erasing from mind other JM novels, I still love the book. I still reread it several times a year.
I read it way before I found this bb. In fact, when I first read it, it never crossed my mind to dislike Katie. I understood why she's distrustful of men. I don't think she's a snob. It was proven when she accidentally swiped the flower Ramon gave her and she picked it up and apologized. Ok, I guess when she assumed Ramon doesn't know how to use a camera, swim or dance is kind of insulting.
Now, regarding Ramon, he was the perfect gentlemen. Wasn't he the only one who courted the heroine? Wasn't he the only one who gave a flower to the heroine? Wasn't he the only one who declared his love for her (way before they tumbled into bed) and uttered those heartmelting dialogues like "I couldn't give her everything but she will have food on her table and a roof on her head. But she will wake up every morning feeling loved" or something like it? And in front of Katie's parents! And this dialogue: "Because I will come home to you at night and make love to you until you cry out for me to stop. I will leave you in the morning with the taste of my kiss on your lips. I will live my life for you. I will fill your days with gladness and if God sends us heartbreak, I will hold you in my arms until your tears have passed and then i will teach you how to laugh again."
Ramon was a conservative man and he took his responsibilities seriously. As a conservative man, he thinks it's his responsibility to work hard for his family alone and his wife should just stay at home. I'm sure it's kind of chauvinistic but if you also have conservative views, you would just love him. However, if you are liberal and independent, you might find him overbearing and maybe bossy?
I am conservative,(meaning, I want to be a stay-at-home wife someday ) so I understand him and I love him. I wish I could find somebody like him. LOL!
-------------------- ***Formerly known as Sharon Sandini***
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time but to leave unsaid the wrong things at the tempting moment." -Anonymous? Posts: 2968 | From: Here, There and Everywhere | Registered: May 2003
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posted
If you've ever wondered what the romance market was really like in its infancy 25 years ago, then you have your proof in TENDER TRIUMPH--It won several awards for being "Best in its Class."
Among other things, it was the first category romance with humor in it, and the first to have multiple points of view. Those two things were considered such flagrant violations of the "guidelines" (read that rules) that the vice president who decided to buy it had to volunteer to edit it. Because, of course, the rules were---his.
See how much things have improved in the romance publishing world?
I haven't read TT in at least 20 years; I'd be afraid to for many of the reasons you cited. On the other hand, I'll always be proud of its "uniqueness" and the rules it helped to demolish.
Now, if you want to get an inkling of the state of the historical romance market at that time, pick up a book by the world's leading historical romance author back then--Barbara Cartland.
posted
Er, guilty of owning over 250 Barbara Cartlands here. I do have to say that most that were written by her after about 1985 just didn't maket the grade (okay it was the same story line and kissing scene for I don't know how many books) but some of her earlier stuff was great. I still do the odd reread of my favorite Cartlands.
Sam
-------------------- If sex is such a natural phenomenon, how come there are so many books on how to do it? ~ Bette Midler Posts: 2227 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I enjoyed TT. It's not Paradise, but that's due to the time period of when TT was written. Yes, the h/h were frustrating at times, but who hasn't read those before? Um, most romance books are that way. LOL
I'm a Katie supporter, all the way. I could just understand where she was coming from and has allways seemed to me, to be the most realistic JM heroine...the most normal...the heroine that would be more like you or me, or one of our friends. I liked Katie.
I didn't even have a problem w/ Ramon. I thought he was quite romantic. And the h/h were trying to build a relationship on so many misunderstandings b/w them...neither was perfect, but they both wanted and needed to love each other.
JMO
-------------------- SL
"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, than one thousand days as a sheep." Posts: 4673 | From: In the arms of Matt Farrell | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I'm going to chime in and agree with SL. Which doesn't happen often so I'm going to enjoy it!
While certainly not my favorite JM, and I will admit to TT being the only JM I haven't re-read, I would never say I hated it. And I would never say that it sucked. It's most definitely different from all the others, however, when you put it in the context of when it was written, it most definitely fits the time period. I also remember relating to the characters although I can't remember specifics since it's been quite some time since I read it. Hmmmmmm. . . I think I just may do a re-read after all.
Di
-------------------- A friend is one who knows all about you and likes you anyway. Christi Mary Warner Posts: 5491 | From: The Earl of Langford's Master Suite | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I agree with SL, too. I remember not loving it when I first read it, but at the time I was like 17 and a big Feminist. (not that I'm not still *g*) But I remember Ramon getting on my nerves for being so chauvinistic. But then I read it again a few years ago and found that I really enjoyed the book. Like SL, I was able to associate with Katie and I thought Ramon was very romantic. I thought it was very emotional and I never would have said it was slow or that it dragged.
Erin
-------------------- We lay in bed and watched the sun come up though we could hardly hold our eyes open, because neither of us wanted to miss out on a minute of being together. --Mitchell Wyatt Posts: 1840 | From: Mile High City | Registered: Jan 2003
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I would love for you to do a reread of TT and hear what you think. I did my reread not too long ago and found myself enjoying it. Like I said, take the time frame into consideration and how books were written back then, I still think you will find their story interesting. Besides, RRRRRRAMON is definitely one hottie of a man. LOL.
Barb
-------------------- **We can't all be stars, but we can all twinkle!** Posts: 1848 | From: from St. Louis but staying at Mr. Darcy's playpit in Pemberley | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well I fall in the category of loving TT. Katie is by far one of the most likable female leads that JM has written. JM made Katie's fears very real and the reader was able to understand why she could not commit to Ramon. Katie had the courage to follow Ramon to his home but in her heart she knew something was not as it seemed. She was an abused woman and for her to take this leap of faith was huge. I also think it was wonderful writing on JM's part to create a character that was flawed but able to overcome her fears and get a very sexy man in the end. Ramon was a smoking hot hero from beginning to end and he never whined or complained about the cards that he was dealt. I loved the conversation he had with Katie's parents....brings tears to my eyes every time.
-------------------- Carrie Posts: 518 | From: America the Beautiful | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Hey All, I agree with you all. I would never say that TT... well you know. Never. It is not my favorite JM but I've read far far worse books. I think Katie was emotionally scarred. We don't often see that in our heroines. I'm thinking...Cry No More by LH. Katie had a lot of hurtles to overcome. It was actually very extraordinary for a Harlequinn. It's unfair to compare it with her full length novels. I also think it was very true to the time period. Ramon's deception got to me, especially because I knew how hard Katie was working to trust him. It all worked out in the end though because Ramon really did love her and his intentions were good. I'd rather reread my least favorite JM than alot of what's out there these days. Bren
-------------------- I'm so glad you're here I like it alot It's just not as much fun to be here When you're not Dr. Suess Posts: 5631 | From: ACOSW's back office | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I was so afraid that this choice of topic would be a harsh insult to our esteemed Ms Mc Naught that I was hesitant to even read it all at first. (after all ANY of her books could stand up with the best in the biz, and almost all would stand about 10 stories higher than any other)
Since we have the honor and pleasure of having her actually interacting and posting here with us lately, I hoped that she would not take offense, and it seems that she is quite a class act of course, even taking criticism with grace and humor.
posted
I agree with Bren, completely. It's not my favorite JM, but there are a lot of books out there that are worse. Plus I would never say the "S" word about a JM book. *g*
I think that TT is dated to the time it was written. It's as simple as that. Erin, I am LOL about your feminist comment. Ramon wanted to take care of Katie. Completely and totally. I haven't reread TT, but wasn't Katie honest about her feelings of Ramon being too far beneath her as far as social/financial status? She was real.
*sigh* Time for another reread.
Casee
-------------------- You want the truth? You can't handle the truth! Posts: 3353 | From: Roarke Towers West | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Tender Triumph was just an okay read for me. I neither hated nor loved this novel, this is the only JM novel that I have not re-read over the years. It just collects dust on my shelf, but I keep it because I want JM's entire collection sitting on my shelf, lol.
Helen
-------------------- Solemente Una Vez (Only Once) by Andrea Bocelli
Solamente una vez, Ame en la vida, Solamente un vez, Y nada mas. (Only once I loved, Only once and never more) Posts: 2349 | From: Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think you are correct Miss McNaught, I have to go back and remember my Barbara Cartland and Victoria Holt/Philippa Carr books. However, it seems to me like I grew up as a Romance reader . I don't now if I making any sense to any of you..LOL!
-------------------- ~Esmeralda~ Posts: 3539 | From: My own private corner of the world | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Okay now it seems that i have insulted most of the people in the BB and especially JM who gave me faith again in love and did almost the impossible -- she made me read romance! I would never have thought people would take it this badly.
Ladies i apologize. Especially Ms Mcnaught. but i remember from long ago that you had said that we here are like friends and can talk about our feelings freely, so i was just stating my opinion. the reason i didnt like the novel so much (notice not using the 's' word ) was: "IT GOT ME THINKING IF ALL JM NOVELS WERE LIKE THIS!" and considering i had just finished my tests and my mind was filled with economics and accounts i read this novel (having nearly forgotten what pleasure JM novels were to read). I hope the ladies here will understand that the reason i felt so strongly was because i didnt like the doubts i was having abt other JM novels which by the way was said as a way of compliment.
Anyways, thankz to nightdancer, singergirl (my favourite would be WML and KOD), esmeralda, JJ2, Stamatina and others to have understood me and plz Miss Mcnaught i hope i havent got u on the defensive, i really love ur novels.
NADYA
-------------------- "Time cannot destroy it. Im that love--time cannot touch me. Time but changes the form. Somewhere in some time it will return. When u least expect it, the face of a loved one reappears. Look beyond the face and you will see ME." THE LAST VAMPIRE, CP. Posts: 241 | From: A Kingdom Of Dreams | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Okay now it seems that i have insulted most of the people in the BB and especially JM who gave me faith again in love and did almost the impossible -- she made me read romance! I would never have thought people would take it this badly.
Ladies i apologize. Especially Ms Mcnaught. but i remember from long ago that you had said that we here are like friends and can talk about our feelings freely, so i was just stating my opinion. the reason i didnt like the novel so much (notice not using the 's' word ) was: "IT GOT ME THINKING IF ALL JM NOVELS WERE LIKE THIS!" and considering i had just finished my tests and my mind was filled with economics and accounts i read this novel (having nearly forgotten what pleasure JM novels were to read). I hope the ladies here will understand that the reason i felt so strongly was because i didnt like the doubts i was having abt other JM novels which by the way was said as a way of compliment.
Anyways, thankz to nightdancer, singergirl (my favourite would be WML and KOD), esmeralda, JJ2, Stamatina and others to have understood me and plz Miss Mcnaught i hope i havent got u on the defensive, i really love ur novels.
NADYA
-------------------- "Time cannot destroy it. Im that love--time cannot touch me. Time but changes the form. Somewhere in some time it will return. When u least expect it, the face of a loved one reappears. Look beyond the face and you will see ME." THE LAST VAMPIRE, CP. Posts: 241 | From: A Kingdom Of Dreams | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Nadya, I assure you I wasn't insulted by your post, nor did you make me defensive.
The only reason I posted a reply at all was because people on our board seem to enjoy getting "inside/r glimpses" into the publishing world, and the romance genre, and my books.
When I posted my message here, I was simply trying to share with you some little insights and tidbits that I thought you'd enjoy having because you created this topic.
Actually, I'm glad this whole problem came up again, because it's inevitable, and I should probably address it directly with a topic of its own.
In the meantime, I'm delighted that you're here among us, and I hope you'll stay for as long as you can.
Back in February, 2004, I posted a topic about just this book...and Judith, you actually gave a great response regarding said book...I thought you all might want to have a look...
I, too, thought the book was old fashoined and quite a pain in the butt to read...but after reading Judith's reasons and methods and whatnot, I got a better understanding of where it was coming from...I still didn't like it as well as the others, but at least now I can appreciate it...
-------------------- ~~Jess~~
Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired. Robert Frost US poet (1874 - 1963) Posts: 3004 | From: Santa Cruz, Ca. | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Yeah i appreciate the book for all it is worth. Thankz JM. you are truly great! NADYA
-------------------- "Time cannot destroy it. Im that love--time cannot touch me. Time but changes the form. Somewhere in some time it will return. When u least expect it, the face of a loved one reappears. Look beyond the face and you will see ME." THE LAST VAMPIRE, CP. Posts: 241 | From: A Kingdom Of Dreams | Registered: Oct 2004
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) was: "IT GOT ME THINKING IF ALL JM NOVELS WERE LIKE THIS!" and considering i had just finished my tests and my mind was filled with economics and accounts i read this novel (having nearly forgotten what pleasure JM novels were to read). I hope the ladies here will understand that the reason i felt so strongly was because i didnt like the doubts i was having abt other JM novels which by the way was said as a way of compliment.
